Revised CRs/ECLs - Thread #3

[Kerrick]

I'm assuming that v4 will be 3.5 compatible... I'm eagerly awaiting this new version as is everyone else. I can handle most things with the version I've got, but DR is proving slightly problematic. How are you handling this, as far as special materials? I'm figuring that magic/silver/adamantine/etc. are all 0.25, and additional ones (like the vampire with 10/silver and magic) would be another 0.25 (so the vampire would be 0.5/0.5 for a total of 1.0). But then you get into the ones like the vampire (yes, there's a reason I keep using vampires - I have to convert a dozen or so vampire species templates to 3.5) with two types of DR. I'm assuming, again, that these would have an additional modifier, say +0.2 to +0.25?

 

[kreynolds]

How are you handling this, as far as special materials?

LIke this...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi ciaran mate!

U_K, when you do provide revised CRs for existing monsters in a newer version, would it also be possible to provide the exact CRs (in decimal)? I figure that you already would have these, and with them those of us who want to modify certain aspects of monsters (like revised SR rules) could adjust these CRs without recalculating them (because they are rounded up or down).

Does that make sense??

I'm doing that; one of the reasons why revising all the stats is such a chore - since I can no longer do it all in my head at a glance when you need the exact fractions.

Oh, and hello kerrick mate - I see kreynolds was nice enough to help you out already, thanks dude.

 

[Kerrick]

Oh, and hello kerrick mate - I see kreynolds was nice enough to help you out already, thanks dude.

Greetings, UK. And thank you very much, kreynolds - this helps a lot.

Oh yeah - forgot something. How do figure up the level adjustments for templates? If you go with the straight tallying, you end up with the same thing for the CR and the LA, which I don't think is right. Would I hav to add it to a base creature and figure out from there, or is there an easier way?

 

[kreynolds]

Would I hav to add it to a base creature and figure out from there, or is there an easier way?

I guess it depends on the template. Some templates have greater effects on certain creatures, and lesser effects on others.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Greetings, UK.

Hiya mate!

Oh yeah - forgot something. How do figure up the level adjustments for templates? If you go with the straight tallying, you end up with the same thing for the CR and the LA, which I don't think is right. Would I hav to add it to a base creature and figure out from there, or is there an easier way?

CR and Level Adjustment are the same thing. CR is measured in terms of levels. Therefore 1 CR = 1 Level* = 1 ECL

*with PC Equipment

However, there is a complication in the form of Ability Scores (ever a thorn) in that they could be factored into an ECL but they wouldn't be factored into a CR (except via Size/Templates/Traits etc.)

So you could actually create a Monster identical in all respects to a Vampire but it would have less CR than a Vampire because it wouldn't have the added bonus Ability Scores factored.

However I am currently reticent to remove ability scores from CR altogether even though this incongruity seemingly exists, although its something I am looking into.

 

[Kerrick]

CR and Level Adjustment are the same thing. CR is measured in terms of levels. Therefore 1 CR = 1 Level* = 1 ECL

*with PC Equipment

If that's the case, how come the LAs and CRs vary widely in the MM? I can understand for things like unicorns - they can't use PC equipment, so we'll ignore non-humanoid creatures for the moment. Take the vampire or the lich as an example. The vampire's CR is +2, but the LA is +8. The lich is +2, and the LA is +4 (which anyone with half a brain would know is far too low). Where did they come up with these numbers? I really wonder if they're just guessing...

However, there is a complication in the form of Ability Scores (ever a thorn) in that they could be factored into an ECL but they wouldn't be factored into a CR (except via Size/Templates/Traits etc.)

So you could actually create a Monster identical in all respects to a Vampire but it would have less CR than a Vampire because it wouldn't have the added bonus Ability Scores factored.

However I am currently reticent to remove ability scores from CR altogether even though this incongruity seemingly exists, although its something I am looking into.

You couild factor them in like with templates, since all creatures are supposed to use an array of scores; hence, each has bonuses and penalties added in, which can be tallied up and factored into the CR.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi kerrick mate!

If that's the case, how come the LAs and CRs vary widely in the MM?

The answer is easy to understand but convoluted to explain.

Simply because WotC do not rate CR properly, although the problem really stems from the inability to recognise the proper EL relationship.

Instead of balancing CR with Level they set it up to balance against a party of four characters of that level having a moderately difficult encounter. This is okay in itself; but the problems start to arise in that they still maintain 1 NPC Level = 1 CR.

So they have this flawed dichotomy wherein they claim a Pit Fiend is as tough an encounter as a single 20th-level NPC but has far greater ECL. So to them an 'effective' level is really a not an effective level - since otherwise it would be added to the monsters CR.

You have to rate NPCs and monsters under the same system. 1 CR = 1 Level = 1 ECL (which is the easiest method, and the one I have adopted).

Let me try and outline the dichotomy as simply as possible:

A Succubus is ECL 12 (according to WotC). But only CR 7.

A 12th-level PC is ECL 12. Whereas its also CR 12.

Surely an 'Effective Level' should mean just that. But as far as WotC is concerned it isn't.

Either ECL 12 should mean CR 12 or it should mean CR 7 - you can't have it both ways!

I can understand for things like unicorns - they can't use PC equipment, so we'll ignore non-humanoid creatures for the moment.

Okay.

Take the vampire or the lich as an example. The vampire's CR is +2, but the LA is +8. The lich is +2, and the LA is +4 (which anyone with half a brain would know is far too low). Where did they come up with these numbers? I really wonder if they're just guessing...

The problem is again that they don't understand the fundamental relationship between CR and EL. This frightens them into giving lower CR scores than they really should because they rate 1 CR = 1 EL. So anything +9 EL (which in their case wrongly means both CR and Levels) beyond the PCs is supposedly way too powerful - something I proved was totally incorrect.

You couild factor them in like with templates, since all creatures are supposed to use an array of scores; hence, each has bonuses and penalties added in, which can be tallied up and factored into the CR.

Unfortunately that brings us back to where we were six months ago in factoring ability scores - the problem we found then, was that its both pedantic and penalises PCs who roll high ability scores (essentially factoring/penalising luck) - which isn't really something you want to do.

 

[Kavon]

Ahh, finally done reading it all (last two topics)

Anyway,
hey Upper_Krust!

Looking forward to this thing, I think it'll be very helpful with allot of things (especially with making my homebrew races *kicks old races out the door* )

I always had the feeling that the way Wizards of the Coast had it (the CR etc stuff) was wrong (and when I read Savage Species, I knew for sure), and I was hoping someone would make something like this. I only knew that you were making the IH (which I'm also very much looking forward too, btw..every since I read that thing on Wizard's board last year), and I only just recently (few days ago) found out you had this too

Now.. Where was I? Hmm... Don't remember, oh well

*throws U_K imaginary support cookies*

 

[Upper_Krust]

Ahh, finally done reading it all (last two topics)

Full marks for dedication.

Anyway,
hey Upper_Krust!

Hi there Kavon!

Looking forward to this thing, I think it'll be very helpful with allot of things (especially with making my homebrew races *kicks old races out the door* )

Absolutely. I think it makes balancing homebrew Races/Templates/Monsters/Classes/Prestige Classes incredibly easy.

I always had the feeling that the way Wizards of the Coast had it (the CR etc stuff) was wrong (and when I read Savage Species, I knew for sure), and I was hoping someone would make something like this.

I don't think you can criticise WotC too harshly - I mean I only stumbled upon a lot of the problems because I was designing well beyond the parameters of the core rules. Although they should have picked up the problem when they came to do the epic rules; but I think thats a testament to the fact they never really ventured much beyond 30th level

I only knew that you were making the IH (which I'm also very much looking forward too,

I appreciate the interest mate.

btw..every since I read that thing on Wizard's board last year), and I only just recently (few days ago) found out you had this too

I get around, but ENWorld has always been my virtual home - in fact without ENWorld I may never have written the Immortals Handbook.

Now.. Where was I? Hmm... Don't remember, oh well

*throws U_K imaginary support cookies*

I'm partial to chocalate chip cookies - imaginary or othewise.