Revised CRs/ECLs - Thread #3

[Leopold]

now that I have read it I demand more!! v4.0! Your screaming masses of fanboi's demand it!

I like the system, i can't wait for to see the next revision, I agree with the system as it gives me some concrete numbers to play with and scale. The CR to EL still has me baffled but I think with some more examples I can get it.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

now that I have read it I demand more!! v4.0!

I am on the letter H, if all goes to plan I should have the Monster Manual CRs finished tomorrow and the Epic Level Handbook on Wednesday; though I may not have v4 ready until late Wednesday because I have to go out most of that day.

...of course you all know by now not to pay attention to me when I give a date for something to be finished.

Your screaming masses of fanboi's demand it!

LOL

I like the system, i can't wait for to see the next revision,

I appreciate the support mate.

I agree with the system as it gives me some concrete numbers to play with and scale. The CR to EL still has me baffled but I think with some more examples I can get it.

I hope people find v4 a bit easier to get to grips with. I suppose you'll all tell me soon enough.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

Just thought I would update you all to the current situation of v4. I have all the CRs revised up to the Epic Dragons, so we are in the home stretch now.

I did want to ask you all for your opinion on the list of CR factors; or more specifically the order of the list.

I currently have the list in alphabetical order; but do you think it might help if the list was laid out in the same order as a Monster Entry?

Here is the current list.

List of Factors
0. Ability Scores (listed as factor ‘0’ because they do not always apply)
1. Attacks/Damage
2. Character Levels (and Prestige Classes)
3. Deflection
4. Equipment
5. Feats (Bonus)
6. Hit Dice
7. Integrated Spell Levels
8. Movement
9. Natural Armor
10. NPC Class Levels
11. Size
12. Skill Points (Bonus)
13. Special Abilities/Qualities
13.01 Ability Score Loss
13.02 Breath Weapons
13.03 Create Spawn
13.04 Damage Reduction
13.05 Disease
13.06 Energy Drain
13.07 Energy Resistance
13.08 Fast Healing
13.09 Gaze Weapons
13.10 Generic Abilities
13.11 Immunities
13.12 Insight/Luck/Profane/Sacred Bonuses
13.13 Poison
13.14 Ray Attacks
13.15 Regeneration
13.16 Spell-like Abilities
13.17 Spell Resistance
13.18 Summon
13.19 Touch Attacks
13.20 Turn Resistance
13.21 Unusual Abilities
13.22 Vulnerabilities
14. Templates
15. Traits (Type/Subtype/Race)

Here would be the list changed to parallel the Monster Manual.

1.1. Character Levels (and Prestige Classes)
1.2. NPC Class Levels
2. Size
3. Traits (Type/Subtype/Race)
4. Templates
5. Hit Dice
6. Movement
7.1. Natural Armor
7.2. Deflection
8. Attacks/Damage
9. Special Abilities/Qualities
9.01 Ability Score Loss
9.02 Breath Weapons
9.03 Create Spawn
9.04 Damage Reduction
9.05 Disease
9.06 Energy Drain
9.07 Energy Resistance
9.08 Fast Healing
9.09 Gaze Weapons
9.10 Generic Abilities
9.11 Immunities
9.12 Insight/Luck/Profane/Sacred Bonuses
9.13 Poison
9.14 Ray Attacks
9.15 Regeneration
9.16 Spells (Integrated Spell Levels)
9.17 Spell-like Abilities
9.18 Spell Resistance
9.19 Summon
9.20 Touch Attacks
9.21 Turn Resistance
9.22 Unusual Abilities
9.23 Vulnerabilities
*. Ability Scores (listed as factor ‘0’ because they do not always apply)
10. Skill Points (Bonus)
11. Feats (Bonus)
12. Equipment

Any comments?

 

[Leopold]

sounds gravey!

 

[kreynolds]

Same here!

 

[Kavon]

*push-push topic towards 1st page*

Hmm... Well, I would say that it would be less getting used to if you'd go with the Monster Manual order.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Kavon mate!

*push-push topic towards 1st page*

Hmm... Well, I would say that it would be less getting used to if you'd go with the Monster Manual order.

Version 4 tomorrow. Definately. *Sticks neck out*

Its taken me seven hours today alone to copy up all the CRs (Don't even ask, you'll understand when you see it).

More or less just have to double check everything and then create the pdf.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Version 4 tomorrow. Definately. *Sticks neck out*

Its taken me seven hours today alone to copy up all the CRs (Don't even ask, you'll understand when you see it).

More or less just have to double check everything and then create the pdf.

Cool... I've been playing with v3 quite a bit this evening, trying to balance out the CRs on some unique critters o' mine.

I have to say (again) I think ability score increases should be an integral part of the system. Size and type can not account for everything, and with aberrations in particular (what I'm working on) their abilities are wildly variant-- and there's a big difference between a critter with spell-like abilities with a 10 Int and the same critter with a 20+ Int. Save DCs, you know?

While I am on the subject, I would appreciate a breakdown of what you get for size increases within the doc itself-- I want to be able to use your doc and toss my MM away for good. So, for example, it would be handy to know that my Gargantuan aberration gets +24 Str, +12 Con, -4 Dex, +9 natural armor, etc. I confess I am not sure if my big critter with +11 natural armor should be adding +1.1 for that natural armor, or only +.2, since +9 of that is presumably subsumed in your Size mod to CR-- or at least, so I am reading the document.

So, while I can appreciate the "shorthand" version wherein size increases include ability increases, and the CR is accounted for, there needs to be room to tweak the ability scores up afterwards-- particularly the mental attributes.

For what it's worth, my vote would be to arrange the factors in the order of the MM statblock.

No changes that would delay the release, however... Just let us have it already!

Wulf

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Wulf mate!

Cool... I've been playing with v3 quite a bit this evening, trying to balance out the CRs on some unique critters o' mine.

Nice. It will be interesting going over v4 here on the forums, there are still some improvements I can envision...though don't worry I won't start implementing them now...for one thing determining all those CRs would have broke a lesser man and thats not something I care to undertake again.

I have to say (again) I think ability score increases should be an integral part of the system. Size and type can not account for everything, and with aberrations in particular (what I'm working on) their abilities are wildly variant-- and there's a big difference between a critter with spell-like abilities with a 10 Int and the same critter with a 20+ Int. Save DCs, you know?

The system is flexible enough that I think DMs could add them if they wish.

What this does however is totally mess with the 1 Level = 1 CR dynamic.

As long as you don't abuse the Design Parameters (better explained in v4) too much you shouldn't have any problems.

While I am on the subject, I would appreciate a breakdown of what you get for size increases within the doc itself-- I want to be able to use your doc and toss my MM away for good. So, for example, it would be handy to know that my Gargantuan aberration gets +24 Str, +12 Con, -4 Dex, +9 natural armor, etc. I confess I am not sure if my big critter with +11 natural armor should be adding +1.1 for that natural armor, or only +.2, since +9 of that is presumably subsumed in your Size mod to CR-- or at least, so I am reading the document.

Interesting Point.

I factor Ability Scores; Attack Bonus; AC Bonus; Reach and Movement (Hide and Grapple cancel each other).

Not Natural Armour.

I'll have a look for the exact breakdown tomorrow I'm sure that page is around somewhere (amongst the thousands of others).

I think (off the top of my head) its something like:

eg.
Large Size:
+1.0 Ability Scores
-0.1 AC
-0.1 Attack Bonus
+0.5 Reach
-0.2 Space
+0.1 Movement

Total: +1.2

So, while I can appreciate the "shorthand" version wherein size increases include ability increases, and the CR is accounted for, there needs to be room to tweak the ability scores up afterwards-- particularly the mental attributes.

Well you simply add 0.1 or subtract 0.1 for each ability score

For what it's worth, my vote would be to arrange the factors in the order of the MM statblock.

Okay.

No changes that would delay the release, however... Just let us have it already!

I should have it ready by about Lunchtime US time tomoorow regardless.

Okay, looks like everyone is in favour of the Monster Manual format - I'll go with that.

 

[Kavon]

Hey Kavon mate!

Hey U_K

Version 4 tomorrow. Definately. *Sticks neck out*

Its taken me seven hours today alone to copy up all the CRs (Don't even ask, you'll understand when you see it).

More or less just have to double check everything and then create the pdf.

Ah, fantastic!
Can't wait till it's done