Revised DR

[Zenon]

First - Andy, thanks for the additional comments, I know many here missed the lowered DR.

Second -

So the whole special material resistance is negated by a CANTRIP. Yeah this is better

Hmm, considering that everyone of the spell casters on the list has to use a slot and memorize it beforehand (except the sorcerer) or have a "open" slot and spend 15 minutes to memorize it, what is wrong with that? Are cantrips supposed to be totally useless? Would you feel better if it was 9th level?

Like I said before, no one is twisting anyones arm to change. These rules will be available in the SRD, so you can look before you put out the $ for new books. We haven't seen all the changes yet, all we're going on is rumor. And, in the end, if you've read them all and just don't like it, then there are house rules and Rule 0.

And I agree with evilbob.

 

[bret]

From what I've heard of it, I dislike the new DR rules.

I wouldn't mind having rules like DR 5/piercing or DR10/blunt. Doing it by damage type doesn't bother me as much. It still makes it tough for the rogue, who isn't proficient in a slashing weapon.

Doing it by the material that the item is made of does bother me. In my opinion, it does add complexity for very little benefit. It will also make it very difficult for any EXCEPT a fighter to hurt the creatures.

In my experience, the other character classes do lower average damage per hit than a fighter, so they are the ones who would end up needing the golf bag of weaponry. I can't recall any stories involving a rogue or cleric carrying a half-dozen different weapons. Anyone trying to stay at light encumberance is going to have trouble carrying enough different weapon types.

What is wrong with a magic weapon being MAGICAL? Allow it to hurt any type of creature if the magic is strong enough, the person who enchanted the weapon certainly put enough effort into it.

Personally, I hate the 'memorize the monster properties or die' type of creatures. Why should you reward a player for memorizing the monster manual? In my experience, it is exactly that type of creature you want to avoid, because it causes people to focus on the game mechanics rather than the story.


The only good thing about this rule I can see is it will make it easier for me to talk people into playing more of other FRPG systems. It has already become a regular refrain in our group that the reason something works in a certain way is because of silly D&D rules. This should help kill the last of the suspension of belief. An advantage from my viewpoint, but I suspect WotC might not agree.

Edit: Spelling

 

[Zad]

But the second half is what keeps this from being a hose-job to the fighters. That's the fact that DR *values* are going down, almost across the board. As I shared at Winter Fantasy, the vast majority of monsters will have DR 5 or 10 (a few, such as the mighty pit fiend, creep up to 15). That means that the fighter who doesn't have the right weapon can still dish out damage to a DR monster, just not as much. (Can you say Power Attack?)

No, I can't say "Power attack" if I'm an archer. And that's who this change is going to put the shaft to.

DR 5? Sure I can live with that. But DR10 or 15?!?

One of the things about archery is that you do low damage per shot, but you can get more attacks and get them to hit. This has ups and downs - great generally, problem against animated objects, etc.

But my 18th level arcane archer (You remember that prestige class? the one that makes magic arrows on the fly as their biggest core ability and therefore can get by DR as an archer without other aids?) does 1d8+16 inside 30 feet for damage. So let's say average of four, that's 20 points. Which means I'm going to do 5 points to a big creature? (And at 18th level, you fight a lot of big creatures now don't you.)

If I'm doing 5 points a shot, I may as well sit down and cook some stew because I'm going to be totally useless in combat. Sure if I know what's coming, I can have some XXX arrows, but honestly, most of the time a party has no idea what they'll be fighting. Do I buy an extra horse to carry around every wierd arrow known in the world? And what about that core ability of the class? Now it's just a little extra to hit and damag, and won't be enough when I really need it.

This change is going to take established, developed characters (i.e. archers) and render them useless, and gut a core prestige class.

I guess I should ask my DM if I can start rolling up a mage.

 

[hong]

No, I can't say "Power attack" if I'm an archer. And that's who this change is going to put the shaft to.

Good.

Note: I PLAY an archer, and I think they could do with a bit of toning down myself.

DR 5? Sure I can live with that. But DR10 or 15?!?

One of the things about archery is that you do low damage per shot, but you can get more attacks and get them to hit. This has ups and downs - great generally, problem against animated objects, etc.

D00d, you're also out of range of grappling, improved grab, rend, swallow whole, energy drain, ability drain, unholy aura, and all those other lovely specials that make melee fighters' lives difficult. So the tanks sometimes get to do more damage than you. Big whoop. Stop complaining.


Hong "is getting a bit tired of 'archer of death' jokes" Ooi

 

[IceBear]

They need to do some sort of equivalency.

+1 = Material X
+2 = Material Y
etc

That way a magical weapon of sufficient power could still blast through the DR of some monsters.

BTW - I've always house ruled GMW so that the pluses from the spell aren't "real" in that they can overcome DR or be used for sundering. Sure, that might screw the players if they don't have a +3 weapon when fighting that golem, but I tend to plan so things like that don't happen (or if they do, I *WANT* it to be a tough fight). In my case, the potential abuse of the spell more than offsets this potential problem.

Anway, I think we need more feedback from Andy on this DR issue before we can say for sure.

IceBear

 

[Pielorinho]

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

Daniel

 

[IceBear]

It is! It is!



IceBear

 

[Pielorinho]

Okay, maybe that's not the most productive thing I've ever posted. But good gravy, there's a lot of Chicken Littles running around in this thread.

Before you conclude that new DR rules are going to hose your PC, it'd behoove you to:

1) Consider that the people designing 3.5 have heard of, and will pay attention to, game balance.
2) Think of possible solutions to the potential problems you're imagining, and discuss ways to make the system work; and
3) Don't condemn the system until you've seen it.

Worried that an arcane archer is going to get hosed? What about that new 1st-level arcane spell, transmute metal? For one round/level, it'll change one melee weapon or 50 missiles from one nonmagical metal into another nonmagical metal. Presto: the arcane archer is useful again.

There are probably easy fixes to other problems, too. And one easy fix is this: if you're going to the Abyss, carry blessed silver weapons. You'll overcome the DR of those pesky pit fiends, and feel all smart for doingi t.

Daniel

 

[Brown Jenkin]

First - Andy, thanks for the additional comments, I know many here missed the lowered DR.

So now a first level fighter with high strength and a two handed weapon can damage anything. What happened to the invulnerability to normal weapons these high level critters are supposed to have?

Second -


Hmm, considering that everyone of the spell casters on the list has to use a slot and memorize it beforehand (except the sorcerer) or have a "open" slot and spend 15 minutes to memorize it, what is wrong with that? Are cantrips supposed to be totally useless? Would you feel better if it was 9th level?

People were complaining about GMW disrupting the game by making it easy to get by DRs but all that was done now is changed the spell needed to do this and made it a cantrip. And yes cantrips by definition are pretty much totaly useless and shouldn't have a great impact against a CR10+ creature. The only cantrips I use at high level anyways are detect/read magic so yes I already have lots of unused cantrip slots. You might even see an unintended consequence of this now as many high level fighters start taking 1 level of sorcerer so they can fix thier own weapons on the fly as needed. For 1 less BAB and 3 less HPs you can now bypass material DRs.

Like I said before, no one is twisting anyones arm to change. These rules will be available in the SRD, so you can look before you put out the $ for new books. We haven't seen all the changes yet, all we're going on is rumor. And, in the end, if you've read them all and just don't like it, then there are house rules and Rule 0.

And I agree with evilbob.

Unlike every other rule they are fixing this one is fundemental to the rules structure. You can't just house rule it without changing dozens of creatures and spells. If it wern't for this I would buy 3.5 and implement it imediately. With this I will consider not buying it and adopting the other changes from the SRD into 3.0. If they are trying to sell more books they almost had my money.

[Edit: fixed quote bars]

 

[SimonMoon5]

I liked that whole Titan with a sword vs a skeleton thing

Grrr, I didn't. A titan should do so much damage with a sword that halving it won't make much difference to a skeleton.

I mean, its warhammer does 4d6+19. If it uses a sword with similar damage, that's still 33/2 = 16 damage on average to a skeleton. Even Large skeletons only have 13 hp. So, where's the problem?