Revised DR

[Illuminae]

Strange thing, I just realized no one complains about being eaten by Cthulhu, before being able to act, but complaints about not being able to damage every creature the same way are all over.

Take the barbarian´s DR out, I say!

That´s no fair with the poor monsters!! They´ll have to take wizard levels to keep banging their most damage on the barbarians!!!

WAIT!! Haste has been nerfed!!!!

DANG! I HOPE THAT GEEKY LOOKING GUY DOESN´T ROLL MY NUMBER ON THE ENCOUNTER TABLE!!!!


C´mon, people, DR is an ability, like any other, PCs have to find a way through a monster´s defenses.

Gimme a silver bullet and I´ll show that werewolf!

To kill a werewolf with a +3 spoon of carving death is just not as fun as having your karate championship medal melt into a single silver bullet and shooting it through its head...

As I said before, those of you who like random adventures in random dungeons with random monsters should fear the golf bag effect.

Me? I´ll be just fine with the new DR.

 

[kreynolds]

Touche. But I don't play comic-book D&D.

Hold up a second...

Batman...the guy with everything on his belt...

D&D...the game with magic, demons, devils, heaven, hell, teleportation, resurrection, push 1500 pounds with an 18 strength (slowly, but still, at least for 8 hours straight), vampires, ghosts, gods, planes of existence...

You know...D&D sounds a whole lot like Buffy and Angel, so I guess you do play a comic-book D&D after all.

 

[Kai Lord]

What an incredibly bogus argument. Bad rules are bad rules, regardless of whether you can find a way around them or not. And PCs having to carry around a dozen different weapons and pull out a new one every time they meet a different enemy doesn't add to the flavor of a heroic game. It detracts from it.

Hear hear! Its also stupid that character's should rely on multiple stats, skills, feats, and class abilities to overcome challenges. I mean come on, is this D&D or The Pretender?

The game is designed for DM's to stupidly throw exactly one monster of each DR category at the players per session, to be rotated at the highest level of PC inconvenience, and I think the rules should cut the players some slack.

Because totally gay rotating DR monsters at set intervals in every session is what the game's all about. Players can't expect to choose their weapons based on character theme or the style of the campaign, because that might be cinematic and cool.

 

[besnode]

People were complaining about GMW disrupting the game by making it easy to get by DRs but all that was done now is changed the spell needed to do this and made it a cantrip. And yes cantrips by definition are pretty much totaly useless and shouldn't have a great impact against a CR10+ creature. The only cantrips I use at high level anyways are detect/read magic so yes I already have lots of unused cantrip slots. You might even see an unintended consequence of this now as many high level fighters start taking 1 level of sorcerer so they can fix thier own weapons on the fly as needed. For 1 less BAB and 3 less HPs you can now bypass material DRs.

I don't think it's quite that bad. First, the published cantrip affects only silver DR. Cold iron, bronze, wood, or any other exotic material will require another cantrip. This means that one level of sorcerer (4 cantrips known) won't do all that much good.

In addition, each cantrip affects only one weapon. So a wizard will have to somehow manage a 15 minute break from an encounter (once they figure out what that particular critter is vulnerable to) and prepare the right cantrip (assuming one exists for the necessary material) and only then will he be able to enchant one single weapon to bypass the monster's damage reduction.

And if it's a mixed encounter with critters with different vulnerabilities, forget it.

All in all, I like this change. I hope others look as good.

--Paul

 

[besnode]

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When an opponent has elemental resistance, the evoker isn't decrying the game mechanics. When the rogue comes up against undead, does he rail against the broken rules that make him less effective? When your enchanter faces a golem, does he throw bricks at the WotC HQ in protest of a broken system? (Ok, some might, but there are much better reasons than that!) The game is all about overcoming challenges, and the changes seem to be a nice way for DMs to add flavorful combats.
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Originally posted by Grog
What an incredibly bogus argument. Bad rules are bad rules, regardless of whether you can find a way around them or not. And PCs having to carry around a dozen different weapons and pull out a new one every time they meet a different enemy doesn't add to the flavor of a heroic game. It detracts from it.

I think you're missing the point of Rill's argument, Grog. The idea is that fighters won't carry a golfbag of weapons because, well, then they'll look like they're being run by munchkin powergamers, and other PCs will laugh at them. Instead, they'll learn to do what other classes have learned to do - accept that sometimes they run into enemies that they're not very effective against, and have to rely on their comrades for help.

Just like a rogue fighting a lich, a fighter without a silver weapon may have to accept that he won't be as effective against certain monsters as he usually is.

--Paul

 

[Fenes 2]

Sometimes I wonder. When I DM I try to carefully balance main encounters. When I design a BBEG I look over the PC's options, especially the weapons, and take care not to make PCs useless. If a foe has DR (3.0E) I take into account who among the party will be able to hurt it, adjusting it when neccessary. If the party fighter is relying on criticals I will not throw undead after undead at the group until the fighter "learns his lesson" and changes. If the wizard is a fire-specialist I will not use fire immune foes all the time until he takes energy substitution. In short, if you want to play a certain way I will accomodate it while trying to provide an exciting adventure.

This does not mean that the PCs will only encounter foes they can hurt with no problem, just that foes with exotic DR will not be so common as to force the PC's to prepare for them each day, instead remaining a special threat.
The new DR rules will offer me more options in that way. I can imagine a fight where the foe is barely held at bay by some courageous PC (or a sturdy door) while the others scramble to detect his weakness, flipping frantically through moldy tomes while the foe batters down the door to the library, or using that bardic knowledge for some clues, and then search through the abandonned keep for some (makeshift)weapons.

IMHO, this is much better than just tell the bard/sorcerer/wizard/cleric to cast GMW and then whack the critter till it dies.

I cannot imagine playing in a game where the DM would be as callous towards his players as to render some of their PCs useless by using only immune or nigh-immune critters against them day after day.

 

[Noldor Elf]

I think it's DM's duty to avoid that Golfbag o' weapons effect...

The new DR system will encourage speciality instead of generall kill 'em all groups... Your group can be dedicated to fight demons and devils, so most of you will have weapons made of holysilver, group of dragonslayers might have to rely on some other material. The key is that not anymore every group (with level high enough) is able to defeat monster UNPREPARED. Bring back those quests for the weapon capable to damage some legendary monster.

 

[Aloïsius]

There are many things a fighter without the propre weapon can do to help :
*flank, aid another (two version), trip, disarm, sunder, grapple, tank (expertise+defending weapon+fighting on the defensive), bullrush, overun, throwing holy water/alchemist fire, carry a wounded fellow to safety, creative use of the environment... Not just smash the beastie. OK, most of the time, these tactics are used by rogues or low-level characters. Why : because, with the old system, as soon as you had a + weapon, the best and simplest thing to do was beating with a stick...

So what ? The fighter type will now need to use their brain, even after they past level 5. That's really awful.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

This is the problem I see.

Mr. Batman carries two weapons, a +3 cold-iron bastard sword and a masterwork silver weapon.

He runs into a lycanthrope. He can penetrate the DR, but suffers -3 to hit and damage. Maybe that was the point, I don't know.

The monk runs into a lycanthrope. Well, at least the monk can outrun the lycanthrope.

He runs into a balor. Oh dear, a paladin would actually have been useful in this encounter.

 

[Petrosian]

[/B][/QUOTE]

I hate to pick at this. I'm aware the badguys are suppose to lose. All I am saying is that for the bad guys to lose, DR doesn't NEED to be penetrated by EVERY character attacking with a weapon, every combat. This is my core point.

then thats a pretty lame core point. has anyone explicitly disagreed with you on this ever? I do not see anyone here debating that DR SHOULD be beaten by "every character in every combat" so who are you disagreeing with.

The current rules do NOT make that a reality and the new rules do little if anything at all to cover it.

Yes, if every enemy fought had a DR that was unbeatable, the fighters are going to get hosed. But that isn't what is going to happen.

We both agree. This is only going to marginally once in a while produce situations where DR isn't handled.

Why?

because the "special materials" are (as currently listed) a lot cheaper and more mundane than magic items are now.

The only times the new DR will play a role beyond say 4th level will be when a new gimmick beasties with some new weirdo materials thing (a slahing weapon lathered with wolvebane oil and blessed by a druid of Boccob) is tossed in for ...ahem... "flavor".

That is what I find totally ridiculous. There is no way there is going to be nearly that big an array of monster that are going to be seen by ANY party at any level. Do you really think WoTC would introduce eight to twelve new materials that would varry across every DR creature? No way. You are going to see things like silver spread out across a huge array of these baddies.

Sigh. An intelligent fighter, and intelligent party, will prepare not for what they are CERTAIN is ahead of them but also for those things that they might encounter.

Most of my parties leave on a mission that they expect to take two weeks with at least 4 weeks of supplies, simply because they would rather be safe (fed) than sorry (starving.)

In a world populated (for generations untold) by beasts which are dangerous and which require special methods to be dealt with such as silver weapons, cold iron weapons, holy weapons, blessed weapons, blunt only, slashing only, piercing only, and so on ad nauseum, then the inhabitants of that world would take precautions.

An adventuring party trekking out into ancient ruins without a silver weapon set, a cold iron weapon set, a blunt and so on is just as ill equipped as the same group going out without ropes and tents and any other "in case of emergency use to break bad guy" equipment.

The catch is... it wont take the players or the characters long to figure this out, and unless the prices for silver weapons, iron weapons and such go thru the roof for some arbitrary reason, they can afford them too.

WoTC didn't say they nixed the +1 requirement either. +1 might still be a very legitmate requirement for some DRs. I can also see having all Demons or all Devils weak against ONE type of material. In short. I don't think this materials thing is going to impact that many encounters.

It will impact many equipment lists. See, like extra rations and ropes, the extra weapons is common sense for the uncommon setting. There is NO REASON for the character not to take this reasonable precaution in their unreasonable line of work. So, they will.

So, if your estimation is true and they don't encounter this often then al that time and effort and character sheet inventory silliness is for naught in most encounters and in only rare encounters it comes in handy... kinda like road flares today. That doesn't make me think the rule is good. Quite the opposite in fact.

What do you think GMW is doing now?

GMW right now is being used to add plusses to the specialty weapon. The new rule wont change that except that it will move the guy with the specialty flaming dwarven waraxe to put it down more often because he needs an absurdium bashing weapon against these new gimmick-o-duh-week beasties that masquerade under the banner "flavor".

Yes. I like this image too. This is also a fairly realistic style of play. D&D is not. D&D is not LOTR. D&D is D&D. I hate the fact that magic items make the character and not the character. But that is the way things are in D&D. Materials are just going to add another flavor aspect (that can be used to implement more of the above realism if done right).

Its not flavor, its gimmick. There is a difference.

The flavor it will bring is not richer encounters, but of multiweaponed haversacks of "dial-a-hit" fighters.

Metagaming of this kind is just silly. It assumes the characters know everything about everything.

Who said know everything about everything? i didn't In a world where, for generations untold, dangerous threast exist and prey upon people who can only be hit by special materials weapons, where these are NECESSARY to combat them effectively, then those things would be part of that uncommon setting, not some abstract thing.

Sure, for some new type of creature requiring some special thing heretofore untold, then there wont be tools readily on hand to meet this new threat. But unless this new gimmick beastie of the week is to become your norm, it wont matter.

Ever see the movie Mummy? Remember the scene where the weasel guy when facing the mummy pulls out the cross and utters the latin trying to ward him off, the pulls out the other holy symbols one at a time with their own phrase... thats the exact same type of thing.

Have i heard of werewolves? Sure. if i thought they were real and an issue here in NC I would have some wolvesbane in my bag right by my laptop and a silver tipped cane or even a big silver ring. If i thought rakshasas were real and a threat here in NC i would be high tailing it to my local rabbi for assistance with this crossbow thing.

If i were a policeman or a soldier and these "legends" were potential enemies... i would absolutely be seeking out effective weapons.

If i were a town mayor with paid guards for the city, i would arm them with such, or at least have "special weapons" on hand.

Its not metagaming to be reasonably prepared for your unreasonable setting.

Now, you jump up and down and spit fire about my long list of things that wotc wont do. The key is in such a world... the notion that there might be a "needs copper weapons" beastie is a definite possibility, just like silver and cold iron and holysilver and holybrassballs and so on and I guarantee you any number of weapons merchants will be more than happy ro sell you copper plated axes for a "little extra cost."

The intelligent warrior, who has the money for this easily by 5th level, would be well served to go ahead. After all, one more mace in the haversack is no big deal and an extra 10 gold isn't going to hurt.

People in this thread are worried about Fighters being out done by the wizards... People in the Haste thread are worried that the fighter is way too damage dealing and that he will easily out do the wizards...

Not me. balance is not a complaint i have made about this change. Frankly, i think after equipment lists have been successfully expanded, it wont be much of an issue beyond encouraging the "cannot be hit except by gnomish piercing weapons dipped in soggy fruit loops" style gimmick material of the week scenarios.

Hmmm, as you say it doesn't take "rocket science" to figure out these tactics. The system is being revised. You assume everything is out of balance,

Uhh... I do? Where? When?

Is it really so much easier for you to just make up your opponents's arguements and then "refute" them than to actually deal with what the opponent actually said?

I say look at the big picture. Which we can't. Because we haven't seen everything.

Then why say "look at the big picture" if at the same time you admit we cannot?

I could say "look at the blue snarfle rules and you will see I am right" but that would be rather silly if at the same time i admitted the blue snarfle rules were not available.

But even from these two vauge peices of information it seems they are keeping things balanced as is: take from spellcasters, take from fighters. Feel free to debate the effects of DR vs Haste and spell caster ruling... It won't matter, because something could enter the equation and totally change that argument.

Ok...so pretty much you are saying we dont really know.

If you believe that, why then are you here arguing for the good of this new rule?

If those who don't like it dont know what they are talking about because of this lack of "the big picture" how can those who do like it be in a better bat?

Why does your "big pictue" idea only seem to you to cut one way?