Revised DR

[Petrosian]

So what ? The fighter type will now need to use their brain, even after they past level 5. That's really awful.

I would hardly even call the haversack of weapon de jour using your brain.

its just common sense for an uncommon world.

Of course, this wont stop the Gms ability o throw in wonder-demon vulnerable only to "silver blunt weapons dipped in yak urine" weapons of the week... heck it practically encourages it.

other than lengthening characters equipment lists after even 4-5 levels, this wont do all that much. If you like making the haversack of exotic weapons into standard equipment for fighter types, then this new rule's "flavor" should taste just fine.

Once the Gm sees that the new DR rules amount to an action or two delay in the combat while the weapon roulette figures out the material of need, he will have to think of another way to.. ahem... "challenge" the parties accounting and inventory skills.

"Only affected by blunt weapons dipping in spilt beer" might well become popular, since many players might see spilt beer as a sin and be more willing to just take the damage loss than commit such an atrocity.

*********************

In summary... trading one relatively simple and easily bypassed minor hindrance for a more complex but just as easily if not more byopassed minor hindrance is not a solution.

if there was a problem with Dr in the first place, it will still be there after this rule change and after the PCs adjust their equipment and inventories the same issue will be there. The PCs will still move right by the DR, only the new answers require more weapons to be carried.

Who will be shafted?

Not fighter or barbarians or rogues or spellers...

The PLAYER who comes into this game wanting to play a "traditional dwarven fighter with his axes" or "a greatsword wielding barbarian" or "a master archer" who will rapidly find that their notion of a character which is derived from practically every page, scene, and video clip of fantasy fiction and media has been ruled out even worse than he was before.

The guy who makes weapon decisions based on character as opposed to based on what the "new world order 3.5" defines as intelligent is the one who is shafted.

For me, those are NOT the subset of players who i want to rules to work against. They are the ones i want the rules to work for.

The new rule rewards the character who does the haversack of exotic weapons ad nauseum. It punishes the other guy.

That seems wrong to me.

 

[Fenes 2]

Seems we have the two opposite factions here. One faction expects the DM to regularily throw the "stupid DR creature of the week" against the party, and expects the party to prepare for any and all stupid DR cases after a few levels, ending up with a "haversack of the weapon of the day" mentality.

The other faction expects the DM to prepare adventures from time to time that center around meeting a creature with an exotic DR and then struggling to discover and exploit that weakness, without giving the PCs too much of a reason to collect exotic materials "just in case" by keeping such encounters rare.

I, personally, expect the average DM to handle the new DR in a way that does not lessen the fun of his players, either by houseruling it away, by giving out multimaterial weapon for the needy, or by using it in a way that adds to the game. If you can do it with SR and Resistancies/Immunities without frustrating your Spellcaster players, then you can do the same for your melee players.

 

[Fenes 2]

Who will be shafted?

Not fighter or barbarians or rogues or spellers...

The PLAYER who comes into this game wanting to play a "traditional dwarven fighter with his axes" or "a greatsword wielding barbarian" or "a master archer" who will rapidly find that their notion of a character which is derived from practically every page, scene, and video clip of fantasy fiction and media has been ruled out even worse than he was before.

The guy who makes weapon decisions based on character as opposed to based on what the "new world order 3.5" defines as intelligent is the one who is shafted.

For me, those are NOT the subset of players who i want to rules to work against. They are the ones i want the rules to work for.

The new rule rewards the character who does the haversack of exotic weapons ad nauseum. It punishes the other guy.

That seems wrong to me.

Petrosian, not the rules shaft that player, but a DM that is unable or unwilling to adapt his campaign to his player's wishes. We can do it with SR, so we can do it with DR.

 

[Shalewind]

then thats a pretty lame core point. has anyone explicitly disagreed with you on this ever? I do not see anyone here debating that DR SHOULD be beaten by "every character in every combat" so who are you disagreeing with.

I believe DR to be a middle ground. Some people (read specialized) can penetrate it. Different monsters, different PCs. The rest of the group cannot. This doesn't change effectiveness. It certainly doesn't mean the other PCs can't hurt the baddie (reduced DRs...) People in this world (realisticly) would carry a single (maybe two) devoted weapons and maybe the ocassional (silver, holy, etc...) weapon for those rare "Oh #%#^!" situations. This seems like a far more real scenario than the "golf bag effect".

Petrosian, you say that the new materials will only encourage this "golf bag" behavior. That every "smart" gamer will have to use this option because it's the only way to be powerful enough to be effective in every situation.

Well, if that is the style of play you use. I am sorry. I conceed your point to you. If your DM throws the, what was is?, "slahing weapon lathered with wolvebane oil and blessed by a druid of Boccob" every week, I feel very very sorry for you. I would never stand to play in such a world. The world I play in would never have a DM throwing a minor rules point at us every week just to drive home the fact that we don't look like fantasy heroes... There are far better ways for a DM to make challenging encounters on a regular basis. As Fenes 2 said:

not the rules shaft that player, but a DM that is unable or unwilling to adapt his campaign to his player's wishes. We can do it with SR, so we can do it with DR.

And this is exactly correct.

I, personally, expect the average DM to handle the new DR in a way that does not lessen the fun of his players, either by houseruling it away, by giving out multimaterial weapon for the needy, or by using it in a way that adds to the game. If you can do it with SR and Resistancies/Immunities without frustrating your Spellcaster players, then you can do the same for your melee players.

I would agree.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

I think it's DM's duty to avoid that Golfbag o' weapons effect...

The new DR system will encourage speciality instead of generall kill 'em all groups... Your group can be dedicated to fight demons and devils, so most of you will have weapons made of holysilver, group of dragonslayers might have to rely on some other material. The key is that not anymore every group (with level high enough) is able to defeat monster UNPREPARED. Bring back those quests for the weapon capable to damage some legendary monster.

Right now our group has a sort of specialty like you want, however we still ocaisionaly run up against other types monsters to keep things from getting too repetative. I don't want to play a fight ONLY Deamons, or Dragons, or etc. campain and I don't want the rules to encourage it. Knowing that we do run into other things ocaisionaly means that I want to be prepared enough that we don't get our buts kicked when we run into them. It only makes sense therfore to have the golfbag of weapons under the new rules. Sure you can set up a quest for some specific weapon needed to handle a unique monster, but you can do that now under the existing rules. Running into Fey or Lycanthropes is not a quest though and the new rules will not encourage encourage running out to find a special weapon but to just have a weapon of every common material. Why run back to town if you run into something wierd when you can just carry your HHH golfbag of weapons (a minor cost by 4-5th level) or have your caster use his scroll of Transmute Metal that will be carried for just such an occaision (I don't memorize Remove Paralysys every day but I do always have a scroll of it). The only thing this rule change seems to do is delay combat a round or two while the correct weapon is being prepared.

 

[Technik4]

I think you have it all wrong. New materials are more flavor for roleplaying and fit more in the "iconic" loop than a lot of things.

Take the undead slaying X. She carries some blunt weapon, blessed and magical as her main weapon. But guess what, she knows that she may have to fight the people who make the undead, or the things they can summon. Her back-up weapon may be a slashing weapon she decided not to sell, because it may come in handy someday. If those 2 weapons are not effective against a beastie, as others have said, she will rely on the rest of the party to carry her through, be it with a spell to enhance one of her weapons, or maybe someone else just takes care of the beastie with a spell.

How is that not iconic exactly?

I think most dissenters have forgotten what DR stands for ... "Damage Resistance". Peope have stated many times that 15 will be the upper end of the DR spectrum, so whos not paying attention? You may not ever even see a monster with 15 DR, but if you do, and if its the pit fiend, I'd say your job is protecting the members that can take out Mr Fiend or, if you have the appropriate weapon, to have the members protect you until said fiend is vanquished.

Isnt anyone else sick of parties where 1 or 2 characters outshine the rest? Ive played with fighters and barbarians that negate everyone else because they do so much damage or get so many attacks. Should they be optimized for EVERY fight? No. Challenges are meant for a party of 4 to take them down. How much work does a rogue do when sneak attack is negated?

I think the whole new DR thing is awesome. I thought it was cheesy my wizard could buy a +1 Sure Striking Dagger that would hurt anything in the MM. Heck, usually casting GMW on a mwk one would get the job done. I say reward the character that has special material weapons, its giving them more flavor.

As far as the golf bag theory I think its way off. A typical party consists of 3 characters who may or may not get into melee (could be ranged), but they all primarily rely on weapons to do some damage, only the wizard is the exception. So whats wrong with this (and please correct me if isnt "iconic").

Dwarf Fighter
Cold Iron Battle Axe
Blessed Holy Battle Axe
Silvered Warhammer
Bow and Magical Arrows

Human Cleric
Holy Blessed Deities Favored Weapon
Copper Lt Flail
Crossbow with Cold Iron Arrows

Halfling Rogue
Silvered Dagger
Blessed Dagger
Cold Iron Dagger
Short Bow and Silver Arrows

The list goes on, perhaps some of those weapons are magical, maybe some arent, depending on the DR (and therefore the monster) it may be better to go with a higher magical weapon than one without magic that wouldnt pierce DR. So far the only special materials I've really seen are Cold Iron and Silver. Naturally there may be more, but holy and blessed seem like enchantments. Maybe clerics can spend a turning attempt to make weapons "Blessed" for a certain number of rounds, or maybe they can just cast a spell on the weapon, or maybe some weapons are always treated as if blessed? Who knows, but dont assume the system "sucks" or "wont work" on the basis of you not appreciating some "needed" changes.

People speak of D&D not living up to fantasy novels yarns. This version is merely improving it. What about that story where the party fights the Iron Golem? Did the fighter with the +2 sword not win the day? Or did he get destroyed because not 1 point of damgae got through?

Whether you want to admit it or not, the OLD DR system is what was out of whack. DR did mean if you dont have this plus, dont even try to fight me. That is not the case anymore. Didnt your fighters ever have to fight a stone-skinned mage? Thats how damage resistance is supposed to be. Some things can resist damage unless you have a certain material. Its no longer, some things are invulnerable unless your plus is high enough.

This topic confounds me, as I can't understand people's consternation with it.

Technik

 

[Shalewind]

I don't have the eloquence of Technik4. He had summed up point for point just about everything I have tried to iterate here. Thank you Technik4.

This topic confounds me, as I can't understand people's consternation with it.

Nor can I.

 

[Falanor]

"The current rules do NOT make that a reality and the new rules do little if anything at all to cover it." -- Petrosian

Actually that's incorrect. If you would look at the Pit Fiend's new stats, you'd notice that it isn't anything but a 15. If you can't penetrate that then you just ain't tryin'. And according to Andy Collins this is considered "mighty", and how it keeps DR revised from being a hose job top fighters. After all, the Iron Golem won't have his +3/50 DR anymore. Sure it'll be tough to beat 'em, but it should have been that way to begin with.

"An intelligent fighter, and intelligent party, will prepare not for what they are CERTAIN is ahead of them but also for those things that they might encounter." -- Petrosian

Exactly how? What, do they have a Tuesday plan action as opposed to a Wedensday plan of action? If a party doesn't know how one day is going to be different from the next, then its going to be a bit difficult to actually do this.

"In a world where, for generations untold, dangerous threast exist and prey upon people who can only be hit by special materials weapons, where these are NECESSARY to combat them effectively, then those things would be part of that uncommon setting, not some abstract thing." -- Petrosian

Which is making the assumption that everyone knows how to defeat every beast. Just cause one person figured it out doesn't mean everyone instantly knows it as well. Sure there could be old wives tales about a Goblin being immune to silver on a Saturday at high noon, but that doesn't mean its true. As it is, knowledge about higher CR critters is supposed to be more difficult to attain, seeing as only certain people ever meet them and survive. Unless on your world there is a 'Daily Inquisitor' where adventurers report in and talk about the DR of the day, this really doesn't happen.

"Remember the scene where the weasel guy when facing the mummy pulls out the cross and utters the latin trying to ward him off, the pulls out the other holy symbols one at a time with their own phrase... thats the exact same type of thing." -- Petrosian

And remember that none of them worked? Ever hear of Holy Symbols working something on a Mummy in ancient lore? No, you got a curse, treasure, and not much else. So why did he have all the Holy Symbols? What, did he expect to run into a Vampire? The only thing that did is that he spoke 'the slave tongue' and that's because the Mummy could utlize him for a moment.

I think what Shalewind is tryin to get across with his 'big picture' statement is that we don't know what everything is going to be like so its rather fallacious.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

I think you have it all wrong. New materials are more flavor for roleplaying and fit more in the "iconic" loop than a lot of things.

Take the undead slaying X. She carries some blunt weapon, blessed and magical as her main weapon. But guess what, she knows that she may have to fight the people who make the undead, or the things they can summon. Her back-up weapon may be a slashing weapon she decided not to sell, because it may come in handy someday. If those 2 weapons are not effective against a beastie, as others have said, she will rely on the rest of the party to carry her through, be it with a spell to enhance one of her weapons, or maybe someone else just takes care of the beastie with a spell.

How is that not iconic exactly?

Someone can cast a spell to make her weapon work, sounds like now with GMW. Or she could carry a few more spare weapons in her HHH and be useful. Relying on the rest of the party because you are to cheep to carry a few spare weapons seems like bad tactics to me.

I think most dissenters have forgotten what DR stands for ... "Damage Resistance". Peope have stated many times that 15 will be the upper end of the DR spectrum, so whos not paying attention? You may not ever even see a monster with 15 DR, but if you do, and if its the pit fiend, I'd say your job is protecting the members that can take out Mr Fiend or, if you have the appropriate weapon, to have the members protect you until said fiend is vanquished.

If most things with DR are running around with DR 5 then what's the point of having DR. Even a 1st level commoner can do reasonable damage. This takes away the feeling of invincibility that these mythical creatures are supposed to have.

Isnt anyone else sick of parties where 1 or 2 characters outshine the rest? Ive played with fighters and barbarians that negate everyone else because they do so much damage or get so many attacks. Should they be optimized for EVERY fight? No. Challenges are meant for a party of 4 to take them down. How much work does a rogue do when sneak attack is negated?

They will still be optimized for every fight because the special weapons are so cheep they can afford to always have the weapon they need in thier golfbag. Before a high DR could make the party rely on the spellcasters and rogues sometimes. Now the Fighters for a small price can unleash thier damage on everything. seems to me it will be harder for the DM to come up with chance to let some people shine while reigning in others.

I think the whole new DR thing is awesome. I thought it was cheesy my wizard could buy a +1 Sure Striking Dagger that would hurt anything in the MM. Heck, usually casting GMW on a mwk one would get the job done. I say reward the character that has special material weapons, its giving them more flavor.

Since we are dealing with materials rather than magic the local law enforcement should be able to afford anything they need to fight the monsters. Why do we need adventurers when the local guard can afford weapons that can effect everything in the MM.

As far as the golf bag theory I think its way off. A typical party consists of 3 characters who may or may not get into melee (could be ranged), but they all primarily rely on weapons to do some damage, only the wizard is the exception. So whats wrong with this (and please correct me if isnt "iconic").

Dwarf Fighter
Cold Iron Battle Axe
Blessed Holy Battle Axe
Silvered Warhammer
Bow and Magical Arrows

Human Cleric
Holy Blessed Deities Favored Weapon
Copper Lt Flail
Crossbow with Cold Iron Arrows

Halfling Rogue
Silvered Dagger
Blessed Dagger
Cold Iron Dagger
Short Bow and Silver Arrows

The list goes on, perhaps some of those weapons are magical, maybe some arent, depending on the DR (and therefore the monster) it may be better to go with a higher magical weapon than one without magic that wouldnt pierce DR.

Sounds like the start of a golfbag to me.

So far the only special materials I've really seen are Cold Iron and Silver. Naturally there may be more, but holy and blessed seem like enchantments. Maybe clerics can spend a turning attempt to make weapons "Blessed" for a certain number of rounds, or maybe they can just cast a spell on the weapon, or maybe some weapons are always treated as if blessed? Who knows, but dont assume the system "sucks" or "wont work" on the basis of you not appreciating some "needed" changes.

If the new system only has two materials and then magical enhancements you will then only have two types of "Magic" weapons as all magic weapons would be made of 1 or the other material. People will then be "blessing" them as they do with GMW. Now if thier are only 2 types of magic weapons, then everyone will certainly carry one of each and no real difference will be felt in the system other than everything will be weaker for peasant armies to kill.

People speak of D&D not living up to fantasy novels yarns. This version is merely improving it. What about that story where the party fights the Iron Golem? Did the fighter with the +2 sword not win the day? Or did he get destroyed because not 1 point of damgae got through?

What about Excalibur or Stormbringer, Do you belive that Arthur or Elric would have to swap out weapons because thier magical steel swords wouldn't hurt a monster. Glamdring seemed to have no problem with a Balrog and it was only magical. My view of fantasy yarns has always been that magic trumps materials.

Whether you want to admit it or not, the OLD DR system is what was out of whack. DR did mean if you dont have this plus, dont even try to fight me. That is not the case anymore. Didnt your fighters ever have to fight a stone-skinned mage? Thats how damage resistance is supposed to be. Some things can resist damage unless you have a certain material. Its no longer, some things are invulnerable unless your plus is high enough.

Now it will be if you don't have the right material don't fight me. The only thing we have done is add the THF to the mix and that only barely. It will still be the spellcasters doing all the damage unless the fighters carry thier golfbag.

This topic confounds me, as I can't understand people's consternation with it.

Technik

Part of my consternation is fixing something that wasn't broken in a way makes it broken and that make backwards compatability dificult at best. If this had been implemented in 3.0 it would have been ok at best but would have been one of the things that people were complaining about needing to be fixed in 3.5. Also 3.5 shouldn't invalidate what I bought before and force me to buy a Revised MMII, Revised Fiend Folio, Revised Manual of the Planes, Revised Savage Species, Revised FR Campaign Setting, Revised Creatures of Faerun. Seems more a like a chance to resell everything one more time.

 

[Shalewind]

Now it will be if you don't have the right material don't fight me.

That is quite simply, wrong.

This debate is formed on incomplete information. It is really pointless because whatever the revisions are, we can't say if they are good or bad without seeing the product as whole. I choose to belive in WoTC and that the changes are for the public as well as to make money. Others are always of course free to believe as they will.

And just for the record, I thought DR was broken prior to these changes, so no, WoTC isn't just doing something to do it, they did listen to someone (and I am not the only voice in that crowd).

So I'm not commenting with the information we now have. No ground can be gained by arguing with a wall. And on that note, I'm outta here, following Icebear.