Revised DR

[Petrosian]

[/B][/QUOTE]

Hey petrosian, you can stop harping on the symantics of what is being said. If you never said that specific material DR is "useless" you said it in between the lines. So get over it.

Well frankly, i prefer to read and iscuss what is in the lines, not what people want to invent between them. YMMV.

You still have never even taken the time to think that they may alter the economic element in the game, making silvered and cold ironed weapons more expensive, thus forcing the fighters to use different tactics.

There are a lot of things i haven't considered. I am limiting my discussion of the new rules to what we KNOW of the new rules, not what we may imagine might also be.

There are a gazillion things they might do.

They might give fighter's feats allowing them to transform their weapons into these types on demand.

they might give designer dr to goblins and orcs and other ubiquitous beasties.

they might decide that any number of other things make sense too, like changing the price ofn silvered weapons.

This level of discussion is pointless. Discussing the speculation is silly and a waste of time.

Discussing the new rules as we know them, what we know of them, is not.

if you wish to start a new thread where you speculate not about the new rules we have knowledge of, but what other possible rules there might be, that would be cool.

Many of which have been listed numerous times. No they can't just switch to their "sword of buffing" and help out in that way, but they can act as a shield for the party, etc etc. This argument is old, your position doesnt even have any passion in it.

Do you often expect passion to be integral to rules debates?

Youre fighting against "designer" DR (as you call it) because it rewards munchkins, assuming the cost of special material weapons is not taken into account. No, that isnt something you said, I paraphrased.

good you are learning.

Well in your next point-by-point post (which gets rather tedious, rereading what everyone wrote a little further up the page) can you consider what they can do to make the new DR work? Or is it just impossible and not worth your time since you dont have any issues with the old DR (apparantly).

I have no desire to discuss speculation about the vast and myriad possibilites of unknown rules changes. This discussion is about what we do know, what they have leaked and how it will impact play. Thats fairly specific.

The new "tough choice" for fighters will be what kind of weapon they take all their feats in (at least, in my interpretation where special materials are expensive). This is analagous to the "tough choice" sorcerors have to make when choosing spells. The fact is, the "choice" now, is to merely get a weapon with sure-striking (if you are in FR or using one of many splat books) or to get GMW cast on your sword. Can you not see how the new DR encourages more "rolplaying" and "tough choices" for the fighting classes?

No, as stated before, it encourages more accounting.

it will devalue slightly the weapon specific feats such as focus, specialization and imp crit. The need to bropaden ones weapon collection will probably also make exotic weapons feat less desirable since you wont be planning on sticking to one weapon type as much.

I dont see these as that tough in the choice department.

For instance, heres my example:

Weapon 1-150 gold, normal
Masterwork Weapon +300 gold
Silver Weapon +500 gold
Cold Iron Weapon +500 gold
Copper Weapon +500 gold
Holysiver Weapon +1,000 gold

nice fiction. nice imagination. nice theory.

Want to see mine...

normal weapon... 3 bunnies.
masterwork weapon... 7 bunnies.
silver weapon... 12 cunquats
cold iron weapon... seven sexual favors.
holysilver weapon... 3 robin's feathers.

now, please base your next few responses on a thoruough analysis of my notions.

or perhaps we could discuss what we know of the new rules and not some imaginative dream sequences.

should we discuss the fact that they might change fireball to do 12d6 per caster level and give it to monks as a first level free action?

or should we do as we have been doing... discuss what we know of their upcoming rules changes?

In fact, your precious collection of weapons might have cost you another enhancement bonus you could have had on your sword.

But since i might have 12d6 per level fireballs as free actions or i might have touch attacks that paralyze with will save dcs of 30 at second level... these might not be so important.

A whole of might be's exist... shall we start here or make a new thread?

 

[Petrosian]

Isn't Cold Iron just pure iron that is shaped on a cold anvil, as opposed to steel which is beaten while hot?

not necessarily...

in the land of may be's and might's full of imagination and wonder...

cold iron may be, might be , iron extruded from the arse of a demon while mating with a undead under the dark of the new moon collectied by acolytes in a pure adamantium chalice.

if so it may be, could be, might be rather pricey.

Of course, we have no reason to imagine this will be the case and thus no reason to bring such silly notions into the discussion of what we know of the rules... but clearly that wont slow some people down.

 

[Technik4]

Sheesh

Well, I have been trying to stick to the subject of DR. How the DR relates to the balance of the fighting classes, especially the "fighter", and the respective balance between that class and the others in the phb. While taking slights against me by imagining things beyond the realm of said discussion may be gratifying, you arent really contributing either (12d6 fireballs..etc).

I consider myself a fairly intelligent person, hence when I "read between the lines" or infer based on numerous posts, Im not indulging in "pretend-time", rather I'm looking at the bulk of what you said. You can imagine the difference as wide as you want.

The thread is about the Revised DRs and we all take "might-be"s into account merely by speaking about something we dont know the entirety of. You think silver "might-be" priced exactly as it is now, I think it "might-be" a lot more expensive. Ive responded to what I think will happen in your case (silver weapons at 5x the cost in phb (based on silver dagger being 5x as expensive)) but you wont even consider mine. Please, I dont want to hear anymore fireball fantasies, if you want, you can start a thread about that.

Based on what we know we can't draw very conclusive arguments for or against a "golf-bag" fighter since D&D 3e is very much linked to your wealth. A 20th level fighter stripped of gear is not fit to take on challenges as if he were a 20th level fighter. In the same vein, if we can't determine the likelihood of poeple being able to cover all the bases when it comes to weapon buying we technically shouldnt even be talking about it (according to you) since we dont "know" the prices.

We do know that DR values have been drastically reduced across the board. We do know that an upper value of 15 has been set for non-epic play.

We dont know that players (munchkins) will be able to afford a golfbag.

We do know that the standard classes that have to fight these DRs are weakened whilst fighting against them. We also know that they can still be effective, in a myriad of ways. There already exists a cantrip which can change the material of weapons, thus negating DR/silver to some extent.

Your whole point is ... ? You want to keep pretending about golfbags or talk about what we know? I was prepared to indulge you, but if you cant offer the same respect, thats a shame.

As far as proposed prices, I was just pulling numbers out of my head. If a 1,500 gp special material out of MoF (a high-magic campaign) only gives you +1 elemental damage, or +1 damage against a specific DR, then it is not beyond the realm of possibility for 1/3 the price you can penetrate a certain DR. I am speaking from a rules perspective, not a "blacksmith making weapons" perspective.

Technik

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Sheesh

We dont know that players (munchkins) will be able to afford a golfbag.

Whoa, careful where you point the M word!

I happen to agree that the golfbag makes a lot of sense, and don't feel it has to be a munchkin tactic.

Bob the fighter's been adventuring for a couple of years, has a +2 sword, and meets a wererat. He eventually hacks it down, but wounds that should have stopped it in its tracks hardly slowed it down, and Bob takes a few nasty bites.

When he gets back to town, someone points out that for werebeasts, you can't fight them properly unless you use silver.

So Bob buys a silver dagger, just in case.

A while later, he accidentally intrudes on a faerie ceremony, and the Sprite King's Royal Guards shrug off every blow Bob can swing. He's Geased and released, eventually, and after fulfilling the Quest, he returns once more to his home tavern and recounts his tale.

"Aye," an old-timer informs him. "Steel's no good against the Fey - Cold Iron is all they fear."

That's it, Bob decides, never again. He tracks down a couple of bards and a sage or two, and systematically goes through every story of creatures with special vulnerabilities. Trolls - fire. Vampires - garlic, wooden stakes. Basilisks - mirrors. Rakshasas - blessed crossbow bolts. Shambling Shoggoths - piccolos.

Some of the stories may be just that... but by Pelor, if they're true, Bob will never be caught unprepared again!

Is Bob a munchkin? Or just a fighter who's been burned by DR a couple of times, and has decided to do something about it?

-Hyp.

 

[Shalewind]

Ah-ha! Methinks I see were the “anti-designer DR” side is coming from now. Amazing what taking a long breather will do. And as it is getting a little toasty in hear might I suggest everyone just calm down a little.

Let me clarify a few things that I have now realized. Petrosian isn’t looking for new ways to be a Munchkin, nor is he a power-gamer. He isn’t trying to argue that the new rules upset the balance of the system (to my knowledge) nor do they create a large problem.

He is upset for the simple reason that this allows new areas for the Munchkins to prosper and encourages a more Munchkinesque viewpoint to playing. True, we haven’t seen if the wealth system will try and balance this, but knowing WoTC I don’t think they will. It is possible all this has been taken into account, but as it isn’t a balance issue, probably not.

Look at it this way, several players won’t need a golf bag, because they play character over a D&D stat-min-maxed player. Some will use this approach. And yes, with designer DR the golf bag becomes “more” likely for some gamers. Petrosian is pointing out that before this “designer DR” was introduced, it wasn’t as encouraged to carry around a bag of weapons (correct?). And he has got a point. Now, it won’t effect the way I play. Frankly, I don’t think it will effect the way Petrosian plays either. It’s not a big issue, but goading him into trying to “slip up” and defend a stance he hasn’t taken isn’t a very good idea either.

I think a lot of people are very passionate about defending the system because they want 3.5E to be good and golden and the new way of life. I do too. Everyone needs to show a little more respect of other people’s views and take a breather. There are up sides and down-sides to every change WotC going to make. “designer DR” is going to add some flavor (which I REALLY like, and why I defended it), but it may make a “golf bag” approach more realistic for some players as well. Take the good with the bad, I guess. Munchinkinsque behavior will always exist. In the end, the rules really don't matter. The Balance and FUN (remember, that's why we are here. ) is with the set of players and ultimately the DM.

cold iron may be, might be , iron extruded from the arse of a demon while mating with a undead under the dark of the new moon collectied by acolytes in a pure adamantium chalice.

Hey you leave Gary G's porn out of this discussion.

 

[Aloïsius]

Most of the time, Bob will not be alone. He has some buddy with him, such as Rob-magic missile-the wizard, Tob -flame strike-the cleric and Zob-hold monster-the sorcerer. So may be the DR trauma won't be so great as to justify the quest for the ultimate golf bag.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Most of the time, Bob will not be alone. He has some buddy with him, such as Rob-magic missile-the wizard, Tob -flame strike-the cleric and Zob-hold monster-the sorcerer. So may be the DR trauma won't be so great as to justify the quest for the ultimate golf bag.

"I'm Bob! The fighter! I've cleaved my way through legions of orcs! I cut a bloody swath through Skeletor's Zombie Army! I single-handedly took down a cloud giant. But when we met that Shoggoth, all my skill, all my strength, all my prowess... what did they mean? Nothing! I was useless! I had to hide behind the gods-damned bard! It's not right... whenever I look at him now, I see this little sneer. Oh, he denies it... pretends he doesn't know what I'm talking about. But it's there, I tell you. So I talked to some people, and I got myself a list. And with my trusty golf bag here, I'm never going to feel that impotent, ever again! Bob's back, baby!"

-Hyp.

 

[Technik4]

Hyp- I suppose youre right. But youre basing it on some assumptions. First, the old-timer that clued bob in, second the availability of said weapons. Im not saying theyre going to be hard to get mind you, but it may be too much trouble to get some silver so that someone can make you some silver weapons. Especially if you want to rinse and repeat for every material in the MM.

I think if Bob couldnt figure out what to hit the lyncanthropes with, he'd be patting Mr Wizard and Mr Cleric on the back after the fight. Despite spending many rounds fighting defensively and doing his part to hurt the lyncanthropes I dont think it would be necessary to go buy a silver dagger. After all, if bob uses a greatsword going from 2d6+1.5str to 1d4+str is a big change. And maybe bob was punching through that DR pretty well anyway, what with power attack and lyncanthropes not-too impressive AC. Naturally I'm going to assume these values arent changing too much in 3.5. In case someone decides Im fantasizing.

So while it seems possible, I dont see the golfbag. It sounds like a spare weapon, not a HHH filled with weapons of all type and sort. And what good fighters dont have spare weapons?

Technik

 

[Aloïsius]

"I'm Bob! The fighter! I've cleaved my way through legions of orcs! I cut a bloody swath through Skeletor's Zombie Army! I single-handedly took down a cloud giant. But when we met that Shoggoth, all my skill, all my strength, all my prowess... what did they mean? Nothing! I was useless! I had to hide behind the gods-damned bard! It's not right... whenever I look at him now, I see this little sneer. Oh, he denies it... pretends he doesn't know what I'm talking about. But it's there, I tell you. So I talked to some people, and I got myself a list. And with my trusty golf bag here, I'm never going to feel that impotent, ever again! Bob's back, baby!"

-Hyp.

 

[Petrosian]

Hyp- I suppose youre right. But youre basing it on some assumptions. First, the old-timer that clued bob in, second the availability of said weapons. Im not saying theyre going to be hard to get mind you, but it may be too much trouble to get some silver so that someone can make you some silver weapons. Especially if you want to rinse and repeat for every material in the MM.

I keep hearing this line of reasoning and it keeps baffling me.

Remember where this started? People dont like the old DR because magicn weapons are prevalent enough to beat +1 -+3 Dr so often as to make it less than impressive.

Yet the presumption seems to be that silver weapons will be hard to come by and that cold iron weapons could be hard to come by and so on.

Why is it somehow reasonable to assume that MAGIC weapons exist in quantity enough to beat old style dr but that the rules or the gms wont allow MUNDANE non-magical weapons of special materials to be available?

Do you expect wotc to price these things higher than magic weapons so that the dnd standard "availability by price" makes them rarer than magic weapons?

No?

Then do you think that wotc is going to invent another whole new rarity meter other than price for these special materials weapons alone, leaving everything else such as including MAGIC WEAPONS on the normal "availability by price"?

NO?

Do you expect the requirements to make silvered weapons or cold iron weapons to be greater than those required for a magic weapon (which currently requires a spellcaster of appropriate feats and spell levels after a masterwork weapon is crafted)?

NO?

Me neither.


in another post...

The thread is about the Revised DRs and we all take "might-be"s into account merely by speaking about something we dont know the entirety of. You think silver "might-be" priced exactly as it is now, I think it "might-be" a lot more expensive. Ive responded to what I think will happen in your case (silver weapons at 5x the cost in phb (based on silver dagger being 5x as expensive)) but you wont even consider mine. Please, I dont want to hear anymore fireball fantasies, if you want, you can start a thread about that.

There is a vast and sweeping difference between:

taking two sets of info... the rules as they are now and the changes we know of... and analyzing those results (pointing out that silver weapons are cheap and thus not a hardship to acquire)

and

taking the same two sets of info and fabricating a third possible set of information (maybe they will also change silvered weapons and make these others all expensive and such) in order to shift that analysis and result to a more favorable conclusion.

The former is ANALYSIS.

The latter is SPECULATION.

If you keep refusing to notice the difference and rely on speculation to make your points, thats a flaw you have to suffer.

I will stick with analysis.

As for respecting your position, well i give respect where it deserves to be. I don't usually respect speculation because it is of little substance. I respect analysis a lot more. YMMV

As for your speculative ventures into coulda-land...

INDEED YOU ARE DEAD SPOT ON...

IF wotc changes the cost of silver weapons to make them as expensive or more than magic weapons or even in the ballpark and does the same for cold iron wood, and whatever special materils they feed inti the designer-dr monster, then the golf bag solution will be rendered less sufficient.

IF wotc adds in some new rarity factor for availability and in doing so makes these special materials weapons more hard to acquire than magic weapons sufficient to bypass DR are now, then the golf bag solution will not be as possible.

There are a ton of IFS by which wotc can maybe make this not work out as it seems it will when we limit ourselves to ANALYSIS of what we know now.

But, until we are given some sign that those IFs are anything more than just wishes and hopes, those ifs and the "conclusions" derived from them fall squarely in the realm of SPECULATION not ANALYSIS.

And for one final note...

if, in order to make designer DR work, wotc needs to apply these increased rarity issues, then WHY wouldn't doing the same thing for magic weapons work without needing the designer-dr?

If the answer lies in restricting access by availability to weapons which bypass designer-dr, if that remains a key component to getting it to produce desirable results, then why is it not possible to just restrict access to MAGIC weapons?


Doesn't it make more sense to make magic weapons less frequent or available than silvered weapons rather than the reverse?

Doesn;t it make sense to not try and finagle "silver is rare so getting enough silver to make a magic dagger is hard" to control anti-designer-dr silver daggers when several spells such as holy water and iirc consecrate require 5 lb of silver for each casting?

If you plan on saying NO when your fighter seeks a few lbs of silver for his dagger are you also going to say NO when the cleric seeks 5lb bags of silver for his second level spells?

or is silver for spells available because you dont need to worry about it trumping designer-dr?

The rarity argument does not have any substance unless and until wotc gives us some indication that it will be done that way... particluarly in light of how it runs contrary to the various examples already in the books.

YMMV and cleary does.