Revised DR

[Petrosian]

Ok here is a wierd idea...

DR currently has two values, a blocking value (the 20 in 20/+2) and a bypass value (the +2).

The bypass numbers are currently deemd a problem because they are so low that with normal wealth levels and gmw they are beaten against good cr beasties. So it seems the answer there is to raise those values somewhat. The chosen answer is to add the flavor of the week designer dr.

The big problem with the block numbers is that in some cases they seem too high and stop the attackers cold. The chosen answer seems to be to rescale these values but that still leaves manay worried about the change and dr lethal scenarios.

So what if the problem is the "blokc" mechanic itself?

What IF...

DR reduced the damage done in some proportional method?

What if it was DR +2/half or DR +1/two-thirds or DR+3/one-third?

this way, DR would have a proportional effect across the board.

if it is DRZ +1/10 then it means the mage's staff and the druid's scimitar are practically eliminated from consideration, because those classes wont have the strength and specialization and power attack benefits to beat it at all except on a critical. The fighter is hurt but he still gets damage thru. It also makes TWO HANDED fighting even better over the top of TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING.

it seems to me that there is nothing about the axe wielded 2h style by the fighter than means it should get damage thru while the axe wielded 2w style by the ranger is impotent.

So, why not make DR reduce the total damage of an attack by a set value, so that every attack gets something thru?

For monsters "immune" to certain levels, you give them a fast healing or regen that would take care of those normal damage levels.

this change would make dr more universally balanced, as it would not be as dependent on campaign specific issues such a minmaxing and the availability of strength boosting and the comparative frequencies of TWF styles vs THF styles.

Of course, in 3.5 they seem to be going the opposite direction... taking the guys with "1/2 from" and turning them into blocking drs.

 

[Hypersmurf]

it seems to me that there is nothing about the axe wielded 2h style by the fighter than means it should get damage thru while the axe wielded 2w style by the ranger is impotent.

Really?

Go take an axe and chop down a big tree one-handed, then two-handed.

Take a sledge and demolish a concrete wall one-handed, then two-handed.

Hardness and DR (without the right bypass-weapon) act approximately the same, so your empirical observations of the effect of one-handed vs two-handed swings on the hardness of the tree or the wall should give you a fair idea of the effects of those same swings against DR.

Big difference.

-Hyp.

 

[Madriver]

Well, I have a house rule that GMW doesn't count for purposes of bypassing DR and sundering, so that takes care of that problem.

As for the 3.5 DR, I think what I'll probably do (that opinion could change once it's released) is to use the DR from the 3.5, but to substitute the material required to overcome the DR with the old value from the original MM (except for stuff like skeletons with DR 5/blunt which I like). I do like the flavor idea of the different materials, but I'd rather have a unique monster show up from time to time that needed a special material to defeat it (with the quest to obtain said weapon being part of the adventure) than to require the PC to carry around golfbags of weapons.

IceBear

Why would you need a golfbag full of weapons? With the DR for these creatures being lowered, the party can defeat them by overcoming the DR through brute force.

I like the new DR system, it gives the creatures that have the "special" materials DR that much more flavor. What is the point of the DR in the old system if everyone had the weapons to overcome it by the time they met? At least this way, these few creatures will become a little more dangerous, and will provide a more challenging fight.

In the old (current really) why give werecreatures a DR of silver if everyone has magical weapons by the time they fight them?

 

[Spatzimaus]

I really don't think it'll devolve to the Golf-Bag-o-Doom. It's just not worth it in the long run for many characters, especially once you get to a decent level.

Let's say I'm a 10th-level Fighter and have a +3 sword. I find out I need to hunt a pack of werewolves (DR 5/silver).
Comparing the effectiveness of my +3 sword versus a masterwork silver sword, my sword has an attack bonus two higher (+3 enhancement vs. +1 masterwork), and does two points less damage ((+3 enhancement - 5 DR) vs. +0). Power Attack for 2 and they're equal.

At mid/high levels it wouldn't be worth it to use a specialized weapon when confronted with DR 5/material. Sure, you could GMW the silver sword, in which case it'd now be superior, but GMW's faults are an entirely different discussion.
Against DR 10/whatever or 15/whatever you're better off finding the right material, but from the sound of it DR this high will be less common. So, the result is that in most cases the Fighters will just brute force through the DR. It's like having Fire Resistance 5; it won't keep people from casting Fireball at you, but it WILL make it slightly less effective.

Personally, I like that. Spellcasters are constantly having to adjust their tactics to their enemy's capabilities. Sometimes it's a question of saves, sometimes it's SR, sometimes it's resistances. But melee people? The only strategy I've ever seen some of them do is figure out how much to Power Attack for based on the enemy's AC.

Or, look at the Skeleton (DR 5/blunt). If I'm a Fighter with a longsword, I'll probably have Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization. Maybe Improved Critical, too, but let's assume not. Is it worth it for me to pull out a blunt weapon in this situation? This sort of DR adds some flavor to the fight, but it won't cause anyone to switch weapon types.

Now, it'd be nice if there was some sort of equivalence system. Like, saying that if a silver weapon bypasses the monster's DR entirely, a +2 or higher weapon bypasses half of it. That is, DR 5/silver would also mean DR 2/+2. But, I'd rather see how their existing system works out first.

 

[IceBear]

Why would you need a golfbag full of weapons?

I don't know, but that seems to have been the conclusion of the other 8 pages of this thread by people who are a lot smarter than me. I think their point was need = no (unless you're a low damage person); want = yes.

IceBear

 

[BeauNiddle]

Ok here is a wierd idea...

What IF...

DR reduced the damage done in some proportional method?

What if it was DR +2/half or DR +1/two-thirds or DR+3/one-third?

this way, DR would have a proportional effect across the board.

Because a titan loses 30 points of damage from his 60 point hit and the pixie only loses 2 points from it's 4 point hit. For the player who likes getting really high point crits implementing this rule will get you dead DMs

The main reason against the golf bag is quite simply wealth.

Presuming special materials cost 200gp each you have a choice between a +1 weapon or 10 weapons for your golf bag. Do you get a +3 weapon or upgrade all your weapons to a mere +1 (for the times when you need magical materials but still leaving you incapable of hurting +2 creatures)?

If you have a +3 weapon and you meet a werewolf with 5/silver is it a better choice to just except the -2 to hit from power attack or should you spend extra money and effort carrying a second/third/twentith weapon all the time. [presuming you check encumberance at least occasionally]

The golf bag is one solution but it is not the most cost effective or intelligent. However it does provide one more option for the players rather than merely HAVING to get the highest plus weapon they can.

 

[pontus]

All I want to know is this: If you need a holy silver weapon to deal real damage to a pit fiend, what will the tanar'ri do?

a) Resort to their natural weapons

b) Power Attack like mad

c) Do nothing but cast Chaos Hammer

or

d) Set up a smuggling operation bringing in holy silver weapons from the prime

Somehow, none of these options feels right

 

[Petrosian]

You miss the point.

I KNOW how the current mechanic works and why using the current mechanic the two handed axe is better at beating the werewolf's silver immunity than the one handed axe.

i dont need any object lessons or real world physical tests to show me that a double wielding axe should be a lot better at crunching thru a tree.

What i am questioning is is the tree a good model to use to mimic the effects of a werewolf's immunity in the first place.

When somone asks you how the werewolf's immunity to silver works in legend do you start with "well imagine the werewolf was a tree"... do you?

if the answer is "no" then maybe you are near the edge of the cliff which asks "if the current dr makes trees a valid comparison to a werewolf, maybe the current mechanic is flawed."

My point was... "SHOULD the DR system work like HARDNESS at all?

or using your example, it sounds better "should the dr system make a werewolf like a tree at all."

Really?

Go take an axe and chop down a big tree one-handed, then two-handed.

Take a sledge and demolish a concrete wall one-handed, then two-handed.

Hardness and DR (without the right bypass-weapon) act approximately the same, so your empirical observations of the effect of one-handed vs two-handed swings on the hardness of the tree or the wall should give you a fair idea of the effects of those same swings against DR.

Big difference.

-Hyp.

 

[Petrosian]

Because a titan loses 30 points of damage from his 60 point hit and the pixie only loses 2 points from it's 4 point hit. For the player who likes getting really high point crits implementing this rule will get you dead DMs

Or looked at another way, the titan does 30 damage and the pixie does 2. That sure doesn't look bad for the titan?

Is a 10d6 fireball which does 35 damage a worse choice against some one who makes their save than a 6d6 one that does 21? NO, even though the 10d6 fireball losesd 17 as opposed to 11, it still does more damage.

how much damage dr makes attacks lose is unimportant. No creature ever lost because it avaoided more damage.

The only aspect for how it affects a battle is how much damage is DONE.

A titan doing 30 to a pixie's 2 means the titan will bring down the beast far more reliably.

that doesn't seem like a problem to me.

 

[coyote6]

You know, the "everybody carries a golfbag of weapons" idea is really inefficient, in terms of resources. You'll have several lower-powered weapons of various types.

Instead, use a team approach. Split up the materials. Person A has their primary weapon made of material X, person B's is material Y, etc. Each of those weapons will be more powerful than any of Golfbag Guy's weapons. Then, when you meet a monster that's vulnerable to material X, person A is The Man, and gets the buffs, the Aid Another actions, the extra healing, etc.; when the beast's weakness is Y, B is the go-to guy. Ta-da, rotating spotlight time.

And be smart about who gets what -- e.g., don't give the rogue the weapon of the material that penetrates most undeads' DR; the cleric gets that.

Depending on the number of characters and the number of materials, you might need each person to carry an alternate/backup weapon of a different material -- but then, real combatants need to have backup weapons anyways.

It's basically the golfbag idea, but with the bag's contents, costs, and cheesiness divided up amongst the whole party.