Revised fighter feats

[Technik4]

I agree that Fighters need abilities past 12th level. I don't think this is the way to do it though. These abilities aren't powerful enough to be special abilities at the levels given in the original post.

I disagree. Those are essentially quite a lot of extra feats, and while most fighters will take focus, spec, and improved crit for *one* weapon, those high level abilities will make a fighter far more versatile than he is at present.

Addressing the *power* level of the fighter class would require high-level feats to be written, but *I* dont think the fighter needs more bonus feats, merely better higher level feats to take. Another nice thing would be if you made feats like the one above, but the fighter got special abilities to ignore certain feats. For instance, while my 12th level fighter doesnt have 13 int (and nor has he ever) he gains the ability to ignore the prerequisite of Expertise in any feats he wishes to take (cuz lets face it, a 12th level fighter has some combat expertise). This breaks down when feats improve upon each other, but it would have application so that the high level fighter spends his bonus feats on...high level feats.

Technik

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

I disagree. Those are essentially quite a lot of extra feats, and while most fighters will take focus, spec, and improved crit for *one* weapon, those high level abilities will make a fighter far more versatile than he is at present.

In the post from which you originally quoted me, I presented 2 cases of how this would work in actual play; neither seemed to function well at all. If you can present a situation where this rule would actually benefit a Fighter, I'll rethink my position.

Addressing the *power* level of the fighter class would require high-level feats to be written, but *I* dont think the fighter needs more bonus feats, merely better higher level feats to take.

This I agree with 100%.

Another nice thing would be if you made feats like the one above, but the fighter got special abilities to ignore certain feats. For instance, while my 12th level fighter doesnt have 13 int (and nor has he ever) he gains the ability to ignore the prerequisite of Expertise in any feats he wishes to take (cuz lets face it, a 12th level fighter has some combat expertise). This breaks down when feats improve upon each other, but it would have application so that the high level fighter spends his bonus feats on...high level feats.

I like the fact that Fighters have to make choices in their character design in order to qualify for certain feat trees (i.e. giving them high enough Int to qualify for Expertise). This also prevents cherry-picking. To each his own though.

 

[green slime]

I think feat chains with incredible numebrs of prerequisites (like Three Dead Monkeys needing TEN feats hurts fighter uniqueness. the only reason to have such a loing feat chain is to have really cool payoff. Which means lots of fighters will go the route of one of these feat chains. What that adds up to is that with a feat chain like this that takes up every single fighter feat to get at 20th level (or a bit sooner if you use your every 3 levels feats and play a human), you end up with a bunch of fighters who all have the same feats.

I disagree. 10 feats? A non-human fighter has ten feats by 10th level. What then? In fact, given that a prerequisite is 16th Fighter, he also has another 5 feats, which could be spent on anything (Iron Will? Leadership? PA?). So tell me how this is going to have "every fighter with the same feats". Ideally, every fighter would not be interested in this feat, because, if there are enough valid choices, enough branching, then players and NPCs will persue their own path.

The idea is, that you have MANY feat chains. All leading to "cool payoffs". Say 20 different feat chains. Not all will persue the feat chains to the end. Some will prioritize other abilities, such as saving throws, or persue PrC requirements.

And last I played the game, fly was a spell, not something that fighters can do on their own. What on earth suggests to you, that a high level fighter with these feats, will not have the ability to fly? Or are you so certain of his abilities that he couldn't spare 2 feats on PBS & RS? You have, actually, no idea. His forehead isn't stamped with a X-HD sign.

The way I see it now, most fighters are pretty much the same. I'd like to see more combat feats, longer feat chains and more weapon specific feats.

How great a variety in feats taken by low level fighters do you see? This problem is increased at high levels. The Payback in expanded ability is diminishing. I have several players coming to me moaning because they cannot expand their ability in their primary weapon after 12th level. Fighters fight. It is basically, all they can do. Some players are not the least bit interested in picking up archery feats. Or mounted Combat feats. Or Wrestling feats. They want to be better with their axe (or halberd, or dildo, or...), in some fashion. And i can sympathise. Not everyone is interested in Bull Rushing/Disarming/Grappling/Mounted Thunder of Death....

 

[SSquirrel]

What I've been considering is... more feats.

At every odd level, the Fighter gets a bonus "Weapon Feat", which must be one of:
- Exotic Weapon Proficency
- Weapon Focus
- Weapon Specialization
- Improved Weapon Focus
- Greater Weapon Specialization
- Improved Critical

... basically any Feat that only applies to a single type of weapon. The 1st level Bonus Fighter Feat is removed, and replaced with a 1st level Bonus Weapon Feat.

Heh in this thread http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=82858&page=1&pp=20 the decision was to give fighters a bonus feat every level instead of just every otehr level. Any fighter feat. Balances nicely really as standardly fighters are definitely a bit behind Cleric.

Hagen

 

[Dog Moon]

Originally posted by SSquirrel
the decision was to give fighters a bonus feat every level instead of just every otehr level. Any fighter feat. Balances nicely really as standardly fighters are definitely a bit behind Cleric.

That doesn't really sit right with me. It still seems kinda blah. As cool as feats are to allow you to develop your character, I like the idea of chains of feats. It reminds me of various martial arts programs which talk about styles. I think there should be styles that the fighter can go into, which deals with some sort of weapon or something.

Originally posted by green slime
The idea is, that you have MANY feat chains. All leading to "cool payoffs". Say 20 different feat chains. Not all will persue the feat chains to the end. Some will prioritize other abilities, such as saving throws, or persue PrC requirements.

Exactly. I wonder if there are any cool feat chains which exist...or perhaps we should start making our own.

 

[aceofgames]

Well, if new chains and feats need to be made, then maybe the first thing is create feats that allow certain weapons not used as much to be rewarded. For instance, a feat that benefits people who use polearms, since most fighters usually ignore them and choose the greatsword, or otherwise. I believe awesome stuff could be performed by any tool.
Polearm Mastery
You have mastered the use of Polearms, gaining the ability to defend yourself well with them as well as strike opponents with them.
Prerequisites: Proficient with reach weapon like a Glaive, but not like a whip or spiked chain; Base Attack Bonus of +1
Benefits: When you use a reach weapon, such as a Glaive, or Ranseur, (but not spiked chains or whips) you gain a +1 on all attacks you make with it, and you gain a +2 dodge to your AC bonus when you wield only a reach weapon and no shield.
Also, you may use nonreach polearm weapons, such as a halberd or trident as a reach weapon to attack an opponent out to ten feet away. However, using these items in such a way gives the wielder a –4 on any checks to oppose another trying to disarm them.
Special: A condition that makes the character lose her Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes her lose dodge bonuses. The character must be aware of the attack to gain this bonus. Also, dodge bonuses stack with each other, unlike most other types of bonuses.

The only way to break the stereotype is to create something least as cool and useful as the most used ones (i.e., Weapon Focus or Improved Critical).
But then again, I could be wrong .

 

[SSquirrel]

That doesn't really sit right with me. It still seems kinda blah. As cool as feats are to allow you to develop your character, I like the idea of chains of feats. It reminds me of various martial arts programs which talk about styles. I think there should be styles that the fighter can go into, which deals with some sort of weapon or something.

Well there are already feat chains in the main books and if you include extra feats from the splatbooks and the new completes, as well as feats and chains from other companies...you have a wealth of options available to you.

You will be able to make a fighter who is uber specialized in one or 2 weapons or you can make a fighter who is like Batman...pretty good at everything. The Improved trip/bull rush/etc feats are easily gained and provide definite variety for your character. Thischaracter might also be focused on unarmed combat and grappling, as well as being able to pull out the old 2 hander for some power attacking/cleaving/whirlwind kinda fun.

Hagen