Revising Attacks Of Opportunity

JamesonCourage

Adventurer
Another thread made me think of this again, but I didn't want to derail that thread. AoO are basically attacks made against openings that people leave. That makes sense.

So, a question: what would it look like if we tried using a little more "common sense"? And I don't mean "realism" or anything, I just mean making the mechanic hold up to its stated purpose. (Its intended purpose might be mainly to port in the "if you run from combat, the Fighter slaps you" rule from previous editions, but it's definitely evolved passed that.)


  • So, for example, can you just stand there to let someone take a swing at you, if you want?
  • Why don't helpless creatures provoke? Aren't they leaving an opening?
  • If I literally just held my action and hadn't used any actions on my turn, why couldn't I use a standard action spell to attack with my AoO if it popped up later on?
  • Is there a good reason that ranged attacks couldn't be used, as long as they could clearly see and attack the distracted creature?

Obviously there are game reasons that some of these may not be feasible. I'm interested in hearing those thoughts, too. But as of right now, sometimes I have kind of a hard time grasping where the line is drawn. Thoughts?
 

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[*]So, for example, can you just stand there to let someone take a swing at you, if you want?

a) Yes. Done tactically, it's called a distract maneuver and it doesn't cost you anything (except that your opponent gets an extra attack).
b) Yes, if you really just stand there and let them take a swing at you then you are voluntarily helpless and count as such.

[*]Why don't helpless creatures provoke? Aren't they leaving an opening?

a) I see no particular reason why they shouldn't, but it hasn't come up for me very often.
b) I have a feat that effectively lets you spend an AoO to attack anything near you that isn't fighting back. It's meant to use to tear up the scenery, but you could use it to dispatch helpless foes during a fight.

If I literally just held my action and hadn't used any actions on my turn, why couldn't I use a standard action spell to attack with my AoO if it popped up later on?

Hmmmm..... I'm not really sure when this would come up. You can hold a spell. And it would be as far as I know valid to hold a spell until 'someone comes in range' or 'someone enters my threat zone' or even until 'I see an enemy trying to cast a spell.'

Is there a good reason that ranged attacks couldn't be used, as long as they could clearly see and attack the distracted creature?

Yes. The assumption is that melee combat is abstract and as such that for every blow you land there are several 'swing and a miss', several blows that are parried, several opportunities missed, and various other back and forth you'd associated with melee combat. Ranged attackers on the other hand are basically attacking as fast as they can on every opportunity that they have as it is.
 

a) Yes. Done tactically, it's called a distract maneuver and it doesn't cost you anything (except that your opponent gets an extra attack).
Your Distract maneuver forces them to make the AoO if you succeed, though. What about just letting them take one if they want it? Does that even require a maneuver? If not, why not? Shouldn't you just be able to just stand there?
b) Yes, if you really just stand there and let them take a swing at you then you are voluntarily helpless and count as such.
Can you do this to varying degrees? Helpless if you just stand there and take it (Ben Kenobi style), but also just enough to let them attack, but then defend yourself? If not, why not?
a) I see no particular reason why they shouldn't, but it hasn't come up for me very often.
I think it would come up with my PCs. They'd finish off downed foes without worrying about wasting actions.
b) I have a feat that effectively lets you spend an AoO to attack anything near you that isn't fighting back. It's meant to use to tear up the scenery, but you could use it to dispatch helpless foes during a fight.
This is interesting to me. In 3.X, I'm not sure you should really need to really spend a feat on this. At least, not where I'm coming from. But in my RPG (3.X-based), being able to make AoOs at all requires a feat. Even then, if you can exploit openings, why can't you just attack things that can't defend themselves (objects, helpless creatures, etc.)?

Is there a problem with that? It does allow certain things to potentially happen that wouldn't otherwise happen. (Some swashbuckler-style things, like cutting a rope in reaction to a group rushing me, and it pulling me up and away from them. That kind of thing.)
Hmmmm..... I'm not really sure when this would come up. You can hold a spell. And it would be as far as I know valid to hold a spell until 'someone comes in range' or 'someone enters my threat zone' or even until 'I see an enemy trying to cast a spell.'
This is if you hold a particular spell, sure. But if I don't do anything on my turn, is there a reason I wouldn't be able to just kinda pick the spell I want when it comes up? I don't mean rules-wise (since I'm talking about revising those), I just mean from a "common sense" / game balance approach.
Yes. The assumption is that melee combat is abstract and as such that for every blow you land there are several 'swing and a miss', several blows that are parried, several opportunities missed, and various other back and forth you'd associated with melee combat. Ranged attackers on the other hand are basically attacking as fast as they can on every opportunity that they have as it is.
This is a pretty good point. Again, though, what if you have an archer who hasn't fired in the round? Or has, but has a high base attack and feats or class features that allow more attacks? Should you be able to do something then?
 

So, a question: what would it look like if we tried using a little more "common sense"? And I don't mean "realism" or anything, I just mean making the mechanic hold up to its stated purpose.

It doesn't really work. The AoO mechanic was a cludge brought in to fix an issue with turn-based combat: that if the Fighter acts before the enemy spellcaster then he has no ability to take advantage of the lapse. Unfortunately, the cludge introduces a whole lot of corner cases in itself.

So, for example, can you just stand there to let someone take a swing at you, if you want?

I guess a trained combatant might be able to. Most of us wouldn't have the discipline.

Anyway, if the character was indeed just standing there to let them take the swing, then I would consider them flat-footed, with all that that entails.

Why don't helpless creatures provoke? Aren't they leaving an opening?

See above: cludge and corner cases.

If I literally just held my action and hadn't used any actions on my turn, why couldn't I use a standard action spell to attack with my AoO if it popped up later on?

The game logic is that an AoO takes place in a momentary lapse in your opponent's defences, while your standard action takes longer.

Is there a good reason that ranged attacks couldn't be used, as long as they could clearly see and attack the distracted creature?

See above: cludge and corner cases.

Obviously there are game reasons that some of these may not be feasible. I'm interested in hearing those thoughts, too. But as of right now, sometimes I have kind of a hard time grasping where the line is drawn. Thoughts?

Ideally, what the game probably wants is either simultaneous resolvion of events or really short combat rounds. That way, there's no need for AoOs in the system. Since those probably aren't really practical without computer resolution, I'd be inclined not to think about it too hard and just accept AoOs as what they are.
 

Your Distract maneuver forces them to make the AoO if you succeed, though. What about just letting them take one if they want it? Does that even require a maneuver? If not, why not? Shouldn't you just be able to just stand there?

Sure. That's equivalent to taking the Distract maneuver and then deliberately failing your deception check.

Can you do this to varying degrees? Helpless if you just stand there and take it (Ben Kenobi style), but also just enough to let them attack, but then defend yourself? If not, why not?

Sure, but I see no reason to complicate the rules by allowing more than a few degrees of freedom. Presumably, a person could not perfectly judge how much he was protecting himself anyway.

I think it would come up with my PCs. They'd finish off downed foes without worrying about wasting actions.

Downed foes most of the time are finished off after the battle ends anyway. If they are downed, most of the time they aren't getting up again. I think it would punish the PCs more than anything, as they are the ones more likely to recover from being downed and whose survival would be more threatened if the goblins or whatever could attack them while still otherwise engaged in combat.

This is interesting to me. In 3.X, I'm not sure you should really need to really spend a feat on this.

The feat allows you to make a single additional attack at your highest BAB during your turn, regardless of the action you are taking (Withdraw, Double Move, Full Defense, Charge, etc.) against any undefended object provided you have an unused opportunity. It's very much intended to provide for a character who wants to do swashbuckling sort of stunts. I'd hitherto never considered making it just something anyone could do, perhaps because it feels like something that would require a bit of skillfulness when I imagine it. However, I could just integrate it into the combat engine. If I did, I'd probably make the standard maneuver inflict an AC penalty and have the feat eliminate that penalty. However, that would probably make the feat too weak, so I'd need to then bundle it with some related ideas.

This is if you hold a particular spell, sure. But if I don't do anything on my turn, is there a reason I wouldn't be able to just kinda pick the spell I want when it comes up? I don't mean rules-wise (since I'm talking about revising those), I just mean from a "common sense" / game balance approach.

Despite the fact that 3e doesn't track a spells casting time, I've always assumed that it still takes 2-4 seconds to prepare and cast a spell and therefore the decision to cast the spell has to be made a 'considerable time' before it actually goes off. I don't see using a (non-quickened) spell as a reflex sort of thing. I might allow an AoO to be made with spells that can be cast as a free action. Again, this is in my opinion a common sense/game balance approach.

This is a pretty good point. Again, though, what if you have an archer who hasn't fired in the round?

Then he's holding or delaying his action. If he isn't then the concrete reality the abstract rules are trying to capture is that his last arrow was fired moments before the beginning of his (abstracted) turn (an event with no in game reality) and he's been spending the moment since then preparing the next arrow he's going to fire.

Or has, but has a high base attack and feats or class features that allow more attacks? Should you be able to do something then?

Sure, but this situation now represents a case of unusual and uncommon skill in preparing an arrow, selecting a targeting, aiming and firing. In my rules unusual and uncommon skills are represented as feats. So if I wanted to allow a ranged attack as an AoO, I might have a feat like 'Snap Shot', that a) gave you a 'virtual' threat zone and b) allowed you to fire an arrow as an AoO at some cost. Common sense to me suggests that cost is a deduction from the maximum number of attacks you may make during your next own action. I would never allow a ranged attacker to increase his maximum rate of fire by making AoOs. That doesn't make sense to me from a 'common sense' perspective and from a game balance perspective it would move the game in the direction of my experience with early 3.X, which was, that the best party strategy was for everyone to become a ranged attack specialist.

There are two issues going on here. First, it's obvious that a turn based system cannot accurately capture the reality of a real time combat. We do have a mechanic that we could use to much more accurately simulate that reality and that would be dividing the round into a large number of segments or impulses, each representing a fraction of a second. I could devise such rules pretty easily and they'd result in highly cinematic combats with very high degrees of verisimilitude, however, given the already high burdens of adjudicating combat in 3.X adding this additional complication to the combat in my judgment would make the game play to slow.

The other question I see being raised by my answers is 'what is a feat, and what is a maneuver'? In my mind, if it is something I can imagine a five your old doing, then it is a combat maneuver open to everyone (though with varying degrees of success depending on skill). If it is not something that I can imagine a five year old doing, it suggests to me that it is a combat feat - something that certainly unskilled people can't do and which not even every competent person could do. This is I admit not entirely satisfactory. For very high levels of skill you'd expect a person to at least be able to attempt most feats, even if they weren't quite as good at them as someone that had been especially training to do them. However, it seems to work well enough from both a common sense and game balance approach. What it does mean though is that things like 'Distract' or 'Throw' or 'Aggressive Stance' are maneuvers in my game (like Trip, Grapple, Disarm, etc.), not things you get as feats, because they are things I can imagine a 5 year old doing in a play ground fight versus his 5 year old nemesis. This requires me to not use a lot of published 3e feats because often they aren't written with this theory in mind.

One of the biggest problems I see with a lot of 3e published rules is they make the incorrect assumption that because a Feat is a short bit of text that it is easy to design a good one. In fact designing Feats is really really hard. Getting my feats right has been a huge challenge. Ten more years of play testing and I may be happy with them.
 

It doesn't really work. The AoO mechanic was a cludge brought in to fix an issue with turn-based combat: that if the Fighter acts before the enemy spellcaster then he has no ability to take advantage of the lapse. Unfortunately, the cludge introduces a whole lot of corner cases in itself.
Right. Thus my wanting to look at this issue.
I guess a trained combatant might be able to. Most of us wouldn't have the discipline.

Anyway, if the character was indeed just standing there to let them take the swing, then I would consider them flat-footed, with all that that entails.
Again, could they do this to varying degrees? Leave just enough of an opening to provoke, if they wanted to, but react to the attack after it's initiated?
See above: cludge and corner cases.
Well, by the spirit of the "intent" of AoOs, do you think you should be able to attack helpless creatures? What about objects? I think that you probably should be able to.
The game logic is that an AoO takes place in a momentary lapse in your opponent's defences, while your standard action takes longer.
Okay, I can kinda see this. Though a standard action melee attack is generally viewed as "an abstraction of several swings," which also takes up some time. If you can do that, I could see an argument for allowing time for the casting of a spell. It could go either way, to me.
See above: cludge and corner cases.
Okay, but do you think they should be able to take a shot? Especially if they haven't used their weapon in a turn? (And it's loaded, etc.)
Ideally, what the game probably wants is either simultaneous resolvion of events or really short combat rounds. That way, there's no need for AoOs in the system. Since those probably aren't really practical without computer resolution, I'd be inclined not to think about it too hard and just accept AoOs as what they are.
I think about things too hard, and I like it!

But seriously, I've very much considered a tick-up initiative (I think Hackmaster uses it, but I've never played). It's definitely very interesting, but it certainly changes the action economy, etc. It is far from a trivial change.
 

Sure. That's equivalent to taking the Distract maneuver and then deliberately failing your deception check.
Good point! Sounds like a simple solution to that problem.
Sure, but I see no reason to complicate the rules by allowing more than a few degrees of freedom. Presumably, a person could not perfectly judge how much he was protecting himself anyway.
Perfectly, no. But varying degrees, sure. At least have something better than helpless. (So something like your Distract maneuver that you deliberately fail your check on.)
Downed foes most of the time are finished off after the battle ends anyway. If they are downed, most of the time they aren't getting up again. I think it would punish the PCs more than anything, as they are the ones more likely to recover from being downed and whose survival would be more threatened if the goblins or whatever could attack them while still otherwise engaged in combat.
It would threaten the PCs more, certainly. But that doesn't bug me. The same goes for my Hit Chart (with long-lasting injuries, self-buffs, infections, etc.), but I've only ever expanded and refined it over time.
The feat allows you to make a single additional attack at your highest BAB during your turn, regardless of the action you are taking (Withdraw, Double Move, Full Defense, Charge, etc.) against any undefended object provided you have an unused opportunity. It's very much intended to provide for a character who wants to do swashbuckling sort of stunts. I'd hitherto never considered making it just something anyone could do, perhaps because it feels like something that would require a bit of skillfulness when I imagine it. However, I could just integrate it into the combat engine. If I did, I'd probably make the standard maneuver inflict an AC penalty and have the feat eliminate that penalty. However, that would probably make the feat too weak, so I'd need to then bundle it with some related ideas.
I think if I revise AoOs in my system then that'd be closer to the route I'll take. Something anyone can do, though I'd probably require something to use it. Though you do have to have the AoO feat in order to make any to begin with (in my system), so that's probably enough of a cost already.
Despite the fact that 3e doesn't track a spells casting time, I've always assumed that it still takes 2-4 seconds to prepare and cast a spell and therefore the decision to cast the spell has to be made a 'considerable time' before it actually goes off. I don't see using a (non-quickened) spell as a reflex sort of thing. I might allow an AoO to be made with spells that can be cast as a free action. Again, this is in my opinion a common sense/game balance approach.
Right. I still have a slight reservation in that most melee attacks generally also take several seconds and involve an abstraction consisting of multiple swings, yet we allow AoOs with melee attacks without issue.

On the other hand, I can pretty easily envision a quick swing taking advantage of an opening, and for spells I'd probably need a Quickened-like effect (the free action casting you mention). Something for me to think about.
Then he's holding or delaying his action. If he isn't then the concrete reality the abstract rules are trying to capture is that his last arrow was fired moments before the beginning of his (abstracted) turn (an event with no in game reality) and he's been spending the moment since then preparing the next arrow he's going to fire.
So, in the event he's holding or readying his action, should he be able to forfeit his readied action / use his turn to fire that arrow at that opening?
Sure, but this situation now represents a case of unusual and uncommon skill in preparing an arrow, selecting a targeting, aiming and firing. In my rules unusual and uncommon skills are represented as feats. So if I wanted to allow a ranged attack as an AoO, I might have a feat like 'Snap Shot', that a) gave you a 'virtual' threat zone and b) allowed you to fire an arrow as an AoO at some cost. Common sense to me suggests that cost is a deduction from the maximum number of attacks you may make during your next own action. I would never allow a ranged attacker to increase his maximum rate of fire by making AoOs. That doesn't make sense to me from a 'common sense' perspective and from a game balance perspective it would move the game in the direction of my experience with early 3.X, which was, that the best party strategy was for everyone to become a ranged attack specialist.
Sorry in advance for breaking this down into bits. I want to hit on it, as your input is well thought out.

I think requiring a cost is mandatory - a use of AoO (for those with Combat Reflexes, or the like), a feat (like your Snap Shot), Technique Points (points given based on your Base Attack that you can spend on maneuvers in my RPG, including using Full Attack, Whirlwind Attack, etc.), or whatever.

I kinda like the virtual zone. I could see a feat for that. Though personally, I'm not sure if you'd need it. Melee creatures get away with the extra attacks and are fine. I see many more effective melee warrior builds than ranged warrior builds. (In 3.X, at least; mundane ranged got a bump in my RPG.)
There are two issues going on here. First, it's obvious that a turn based system cannot accurately capture the reality of a real time combat. We do have a mechanic that we could use to much more accurately simulate that reality and that would be dividing the round into a large number of segments or impulses, each representing a fraction of a second. I could devise such rules pretty easily and they'd result in highly cinematic combats with very high degrees of verisimilitude, however, given the already high burdens of adjudicating combat in 3.X adding this additional complication to the combat in my judgment would make the game play to slow.
I've actually looked into a count-up initiative system, and think it'd be decently fast once everybody got accustomed to it. Something we can discuss if you'd like.
The other question I see being raised by my answers is 'what is a feat, and what is a maneuver'? In my mind, if it is something I can imagine a five your old doing, then it is a combat maneuver open to everyone (though with varying degrees of success depending on skill). If it is not something that I can imagine a five year old doing, it suggests to me that it is a combat feat - something that certainly unskilled people can't do and which not even every competent person could do.
This makes sense to me.
This is I admit not entirely satisfactory. For very high levels of skill you'd expect a person to at least be able to attempt most feats, even if they weren't quite as good at them as someone that had been especially training to do them. However, it seems to work well enough from both a common sense and game balance approach. What it does mean though is that things like 'Distract' or 'Throw' or 'Aggressive Stance' are maneuvers in my game (like Trip, Grapple, Disarm, etc.), not things you get as feats, because they are things I can imagine a 5 year old doing in a play ground fight versus his 5 year old nemesis. This requires me to not use a lot of published 3e feats because often they aren't written with this theory in mind.
The same thing happens to me with my system. Though I like asking about stuff and reading stuff before adapting it.
One of the biggest problems I see with a lot of 3e published rules is they make the incorrect assumption that because a Feat is a short bit of text that it is easy to design a good one. In fact designing Feats is really really hard. Getting my feats right has been a huge challenge. Ten more years of play testing and I may be happy with them.
I know how you feel. I'm really happy with my system, and yet here I am, asking about stuff so I can tinker some more. I'm already revising skills (very slowly), with ideas for revising feats just around the corner...
 

Again, could they do this to varying degrees? Leave just enough of an opening to provoke, if they wanted to, but react to the attack after it's initiated?

Honestly, I would rule "no" without a suitable feat to that effect (something like Robilar's Gambit).

Well, by the spirit of the "intent" of AoOs, do you think you should be able to attack helpless creatures? What about objects?

By the spirit of the rules, no. They're a fix for when your opponent does "something stupid" in combat. Neither helpless opponents nor objects are doing something stupid.

But by a "common-sensical" approach, then yes - if doing something can provoke then doing nothing should provoke.

I could see an argument for allowing time for the casting of a spell. It could go either way, to me.

Okay, but do you think they should be able to take a shot? Especially if they haven't used their weapon in a turn? (And it's loaded, etc.)

There's a mechanism for doing these things - Ready.

For me, the bottom line is this: Attacks of Opportunity are a cludge to fix a hole in the combat system. They're not a good cludge or a well-thought out cludge, but they're necessary unless you're happy to significantly alter the way combat plays.

So, fine, they should stay in. But that does mean that their impact should be minimised as far as possible. So I actively don't want to add lots more cases where AoOs can be provoked, I don't want lots of feats added to trigger them and take advantage of them, and I don't want the designers exploring that "design space".

So while you can indeed make "common-sensical" arguments for allowing AoOs against helpless opponents, or with a spell, or with a ranged weapon, you're actually applying common sense to something that isn't actually sensible. And in doing so you're applying stress to one of the weak points in the combat engine. IMO, not a good idea.
 

Honestly, I would rule "no" without a suitable feat to that effect (something like Robilar's Gambit).

While you are right concerning the rules, I'd never allow something as abusable as Robilar's Gambit in my game.

There's a mechanism for doing these things - Ready.

Any time you suggest the ready action as a cure for the combat system, understanding you are appealing to a kludge that is far worse in almost every regard to almost anything you could appeal to. Ready is the abstraction of last resort. Whereas other kludges in a turn based combat economy rely on spending resources in response to past or present actions, ready requires you spend resources against a future action.

For me, the bottom line is this: Attacks of Opportunity are a cludge to fix a hole in the combat system. They're not a good cludge or a well-thought out cludge...

They are so poor and poorly thought out that almost every turn based system that lacks a segmented round has adopted them in some variation. So I guess that they are about as poor and kludgy in that respect as hit points - such a terrible idea that almost everyone uses them.

but they're necessary

Poorly thought out and necessary apparently.

So, fine, they should stay in.

Yes.

But that does mean that their impact should be minimised as far as possible. So I actively don't want to add lots more cases where AoOs can be provoked, I don't want lots of feats added to trigger them and take advantage of them, and I don't want the designers exploring that "design space".

I suggest then that you design your own system. As a starting place, I try looking at the impulse chart for Star Fleet Battles, which would eliminate the need for AoO and suggest a strong approach to the problem. Also having a glance at the rules for Advanced Hackmaster would help. Otherwise, if you don't want to do that, since by your own estimation AoO's are necessary, I suggest your dislike of AoO's is both irrational and also suggests you don't have much to contribute to a thread on the topic of AoO.

So while you can indeed make "common-sensical" arguments for allowing AoOs against helpless opponents, or with a spell, or with a ranged weapon, you're actually applying common sense to something that isn't actually sensible. And in doing so you're applying stress to one of the weak points in the combat engine. IMO, not a good idea.

I disagree. The AoO was one of the strongest ideas in the 3e rules, as it allowed intuitive linear combat turns to retain verisimilitude. The alternatives are to require various sorts of simultaneous declarations, phases, or segmentation of the round into fine units - any of which vastly increases the complexity of round to round resolution compared to AoO's. The linear combat turn does indeed break in edge cases ('pass the baton', for example), but the AoO was never one of them and is a very sensible design.
 
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While you are right concerning the rules, I'd never allow something as abusable as Robilar's Gambit in my game.

No, nor me.

They are so poor and poorly thought out that almost every turn based system that lacks a segmented round has adopted them in some variation. So I guess that they are about as poor and kludgy in that respect as hit points - such a terrible idea that almost everyone uses them.

Pretty much.

Poorly thought out and necessary apparently.

Yep. Without them, there's a huge, gaping hole in the combat system. With them, there's lots of little holes in the system - and when you try to patch those holes you open up yet more holes in the system. There will never come a point where you've fixed everything.

I suggest then that you design your own system. As a starting place, I try looking at the impulse chart for Star Fleet Battles, which would eliminate the need for AoO and suggest a strong approach to the problem. Also having a glance at the rules for Advanced Hackmaster would help. Otherwise, if you don't want to do that, since by your own estimation AoO's are necessary, I suggest your dislike of AoO's is both irrational and also suggests you don't have much to contribute to a thread on the topic of AoO.

Then you've misread my position. I'm not advocating removing AoOs. What I am arguing is that trying to fix the corner cases is pointless, for the reason I gave above - it's holes all the way down.
 

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