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Wulf Ratbane said:


So answer the question:

How about we "fix" Dodge the same way? Ignore one successful melee attack per round. Instant miss.

How about a feat that allows a character to ignore the first spell cast at him in any round?

Sound reasonable?

Sound reasonable for a 1st level character?

I mean, it's not as if you can't just gang up on him or swing your sword again or cast another spell.


Wulf

Dodge can apply to a lot more situations. Sure, if you are faced off against one lone militia man armed only with a crossbow, deflecting an arrow automatically is extremely powerful. But, if the first level PC deflects the arrow and the militia man closes, the PC still has to defeat the militia man in melee, and you have already used one of your feats (possibly, your only feat if you are not human) for deflecting the arrow. If the PC had Dodge, he would get the AC bonus against the arrow, and then against the militia man in melee for what could be at least a few rounds of combat.

And, by the way, I ran the scenario of a group of militia coming across a group of bad guys (or PCs, or whatever) against a friend of mine that was in the US Army: "You'd concentrate on the closest, officers or NCOs and people who are carrying grenade launchers and stuff like that. "

My question to him was if your platoon or squad encountered a group of approximately equal size, would you all spread your fire between targets, or concentrate on choice ones?

So, it does not sound like they would be spreading their fire between targets.
 

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So, Andy Collins said that this feat was designed somewhat to knock down archery a bit? Okay, I can buy that to a certain extent. Rapid Shot needs a tweak, if that's the case.

I don't hear anyone in this thread arguing that the *idea* of deflecting arrows is a bad one. I do see people saying "bad implementation." This isn't nearly as broken as haste or harm was, but it's just a badly conceived mechanic. We'd like to see better. Is that so wrong?

We want 3.5 to be solid, designed by people who have a thorough understanding of how d20 works, how all the pieces fit together. I'm not seeing that, to be frank. This makes me think that, as a whole, 3.5 will not be as well designed as 3e. :-(
 
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Wulf Ratbane said:
So answer the question:

How about we "fix" Dodge the same way? Ignore one successful melee attack per round. Instant miss.

Okay... Not the best solution, but not a game-breaker, either...

How about a feat that allows a character to ignore the first spell cast at him in any round?

A bit much, methinks. Magic is far more rare than arrows... or sword-swings.

Sound reasonable?

Sound reasonable for a 1st level character?

Again, Dodge would be okay (though not great). The Spell-Dodge would be too much, for me.

I mean, it's not as if you can't just gang up on him or swing your sword again or cast another spell.

I agree, with the dodge. With the spells, it's another matter! :p

YMMV, of course. So, how would you fix Deflect Arrows and Dodge, WITHOUT adding more rolls? Just +4 AC, or what? (Surely you don't want to see Deflect Arrows just give +1 AC vs. ONE arrow?!?)
 

nikolai said:

It's also just weird that the automaticity is there - so regardless of how good the archer is, or what position the target's in, one arrow gets knocked away. Verisimilitude just goes out the window

You mean sort of how a caster's concentration check for casting on the defensive doesn't take into account the skill of the guy threatening you?
 

While I don’t think the sky is falling, I do think that the feat is badly designed and sets bad precedent.

It’s badly designed for the myriad of reasons outlined above – it’s just silly to have a feat (and a low level one at that) that automatically negates the first successful attack (even if it is only ranged attacks).

It sets bad precedent because other D20 feats are usually based off existing core ones. It’s only a matter of time before a bunch of feats such as “improved dodge: the first attack against you is automatically unsuccessful,” is introduced (either in Dragon or elsewhere). Sure no one is twisting your arm to include the feat in your campaign, but that’s not really the point.
 
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I do not believe anyone would design a multi deflect feat using an automatic mechanic.

I understand the trepedation some have expressed at a free automatic ranged attack negation every round. Universally I believe no one likes to have an action of theirs rendered useless with no recourse, precedents like stoneskin can be negated by dispel magic and so forth and have a built in duration or damage cap. Wulf's dodge tanget is a bit of a straw man argument to me, since a melee attack can deliver so many other effects besides straight damage,(disarm, trip, touch attack, sunder so on and so forth), that generally Ranged attacks do not.

Personaly I was fine with this feat as alleviating the frustration of having a feat,(or class abillity), that was often useless at the level received due to the reflex saving throw requirement. Of course at higher levels,(for monks at least), the feat almost does become automatic, so I did not feel like any great liberties were being take.

Than I read the Andy Collins statement.

I am sure Mr. Collins was speaking casually, not expecting every word of his to be searched for nuanced meaning, and by no means do I want Mr. Collins to stop showing us behind the designers curtain, but his statement that Archery should be less powerful than melee, and that melee is were it is at, bespeaks to me of a play style mandate I find distateful, and that frankly has me dubious about 3.5.

Why should Ranged combat be LESS powerfull than melee?

I certainly dont want Ranged combat to be more powerful, but not substaintaly less, I for one have always felt that 3e finally got Ranged combat right out of all the prior edittions.

Why are close quarted melees to be considered a superior model to ranged combats?

Frankly ranged combats let everyone shine, rogues can sneak, wizards/sorc can use long ranged spells, Bards can do whatever their wide choices allow them to do, fighters can show off how they can master ranged and melee combat, and the pure close ranged combat classes with improved speed, the monk and the barbarian, can use that speed to close on the enemy. Combat in 40'x40' rooms isnt very heroric, shooting your bow at the dragon while mounted on the back of a pegasus is!

This subtle type of game style determince is percisely what I dont want designer doing. Give me options, give me robust systems that allow me to cover a wide range of possibilites, not just robust melee combat potential.

Sigh, I really wish 3.5 rules were given to the collective message board community to debate, I have to think that such debate is as valuable,(if more unwieldly), than playtesting being done by those primarily in the design community.
 


Oh jeez. How many types of small projectile attacks does one anticipate seeing at higher levels, or even mid levels, that is an appropriate encounter and where a full attack isn't possible. Please, someone answer this before crys of this being a bad mechanic. Its no worse than DR.

And the mobility comparison is ridiculous. The diversity and distrubition of melee attacks is much broader than what this feat protects against. In almost all balanced campaigns, this feat will only occassionaly minimize damage. Nothing unbalanced about it.
 

Kobold Curry Chef said:
So, Andy Collins said that this feat was designed somewhat to knock down archery a bit? Okay, I can buy that to a certain extent. Rapid Shot needs a tweak, if that's the case.

Jackpot there.

While I remain overall quite happy with 3.5 there are some things that are bad. And I think some of the big problems come in when they tried to fix something by changing something else. (Which seems to be another point in the MTG anology)

Archery is to strong: So fix archery, don't make silly overpowering changes to anti-archery stuff. Tweaking Rapid Shot should have been at the top of the archery fix list.

The power attack change is an example of the same thing. They did not like that it was more appealing to one handers. So instead of doing the obvious thing and nerfing it for one handers (light weapons aside) they did the silly thing and made a normally fine feat into a monster for 2handers. Item after item they have stated that they nerfed things because if everyone used it, that meant it was to good. Now everyone who goes 2hand will use power attack (not to mention people will switch to 2hand just to get it)

Now, on one hand I really do not think the new version of deflect arrows is really going to have THAT big an impact. BUT, it truly is AWFUL design. So it is worth all the slamming it is getting, just for that.
 
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BryonD said:


Jackpot there.

While I remain overall quite happy with 3.5 there are some things that are bad. And I think some of the big problems come in when they tried to fix something by changing something else. (Which seems to be another point in the MTG anology)

Archery is to strong: So fix archery, don't make silly overpowering changes to anti-archery stuff. Tweaking Rapid Shot should have been at the top of the archery fix list.

The power attack change is an example of the same thing. They did not like that it was more appealing to one handers. So instead of doing the obvious thing and nerfing it for one handers (light weapons aside) they did the silly thing and made a normally fine feat into a monster for 2handers. Item after item they have stated that they nerfed things because if everyone used it, that meant it was to good. Now everyone who goes 2hand will use power attack (not to mention people will switch to 2hand just to get it)

Now, on one hand I really do not think the new version of deflect arrows is really going to have THAT big an impact. BUT, it truly is AWFUL design. So it is worth all the slamming it is getting, just for that.

Why is it awful design again?
 

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