Revisionist game publishing

[billd91]

(And also I disagrees in principle to your it exists in all members of that race mantra. As I said earlier, I have a friend who is colorblind... yet we still consider him human. )

That wouldn't be the same as every DM-run kobold having darkvision while every player-run kobold being required to not have it because of "rules balance".

 

[Scribble]

Of course in a game where you can change your race with a feat ( and even untrain it later) there isn't much of a game world to worry about anyway.

In your opinion...

In mine thats part of the fun of fantasy worlds and TTRPGs. With a little imagination and creativity, + a human being moderating the thing instead of lines of code, you can come up with and do just about anything.

 

[Scribble]

That wouldn't be the same as every DM-run kobold having darkvision while every player-run kobold being required to not have it because of "rules balance".

Why not?

 

[billd91]

There are no "unclassed" monsters in the Monster Manual. Or should I say there are no classed monsters?

Essentially, they all have special abilities, levels and all that. There is no "pure" or "base" Kobold without any of that, unlike it was in 4E. They always come with powers, roles and so on. It is not possible to distinguish between "nurture" and "nature" for a monsters abilities. It's only possible to identify "theme". Kobolds are evil shifty buggers living underground.

Wether I give them a Shift At Will Ability and Darkvision for that or not is not relevant to fill in the theme, just as it is unnecessary for the PC Kobold to be evil and live underground.

And yet, all of the kobolds in the MM1 have darkvision, shifty, and trapsense. That suggests to me that there is a set of standard kobold abilities to work from. And the Racial Traits section covers them as well with the explicit mention of using them as starting points for PCs with DM permission.

 

[Scribble]

And yet, all of the kobolds in the MM1 have darkvision, shifty, and trapsense. That suggests to me that there is a set of standard kobold abilities to work from. And the Racial Traits section covers them as well with the explicit mention of using them as starting points for PCs with DM permission.

Actually the Kobold racial writeup thing has them with normal vision.

 

[keterys]

I suspect this moved away from the OP/title into some sorta odd pro-Simulation argument. Which is kinda shame, cause I think how much people are willing to accept a game that revises itself via patches and updated rules is actually interesting.

 

[billd91]

Actually the Kobold racial writeup thing has them with normal vision.

I would submit that as evidence that they were intending for players and DMs to really use those critters as PC race versions of the creatures in the MM. They had already handicapped a few just for that purpose.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I suspect this moved away from the OP/title into some sorta odd pro-Simulation argument. Which is kinda shame, cause I think how much people are willing to accept a game that revises itself via patches and updated rules is actually interesting.

Yes it is interesting. Constant updating isn't a new thing. Back in the Basic game days we were constantly adding and updating things into the game. The biggest difference between what was happening then and now is that the patching and revising isn't being done by those playing in the game.

Highly integrated complex rules systems tend to give the pronouncements of the rule gawds more power. Way back when, we laughed at "official" rules updates. No dictated changes needed to be adopted when released.

Unearthed Arcana is a great example. We jumped on that book and played with a lot of it but after the newness wore off more and more of it got dropped.

The new patch method works only because of the involved complexity. I'll be the first to admit that I wouldn't want to play 4E at all without either a pregen or the character builder. I'm not about to hand write out a dozen or more powers that all have to be tweaked and adjusted at least every other level. DMing? Without the monster builder or pre-written modules it just ain't happening. This reliance on the convenience of such tools all comes back to the ruleset that makes them indispensable. Living with constant tweaks and adjustments seems like a small price to pay for the work these tools save.
So our games are held hostage by the rules gawds unless we wish to abandon our helpful tools.

Back with old basic set if someone said that I had to use certain rules or I would have to do everything by hand it would be easy to laugh at them and tell them to stick it. Looking at a typical statblock now is enough to take the fight right out of you.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Where does it say it exists as a racial trait?

(And also I disagrees in principle to your it exists in all members of that race mantra. As I said earlier, I have a friend who is colorblind... yet we still consider him human. )

Having color sight isn't an intrinsic part of being human. It isn't essential to human-ness, and doesn't have a significant impact on survival in a typical human environment.

Being blind in the dark without some compensatory senses when the rest of your race is perfectly at home in the dark IS a significant barrier to survival- the kind of distinction that would, in the RW, denote either a significant mutation if not a separate species or subspecies.

IOW, kobolds without darkvision would likely either be "Surface Kobolds," and have a lifestyle completely different from their subterranean, darkvision-equipped cousins, or be outcasts who were abandoned at cave mouths due to their being severely incapacitated in the warrens- useless mouths to feed, if you will, that the tribe cannot afford to support- and thus the possible first members of what would become "Surface Kobolds."

 

[pawsplay]

A racial writeup for kobold PCs has not yet been published (nor has one for bugbears, hence them having oversized weapons). So first you have to show that kobold PCs actually lack darkvision.

Now, I wouldn't be surprised if the final kobold PC writeup lacks _shifty_ in its current incarnation, moving to something less at-will.

Lacking shifty is not a problem. All that means is that the kobold will have slightly different moves in combat. Not being able to see in the neighborhood where you supposedly grew up is a problem. In that case, we have to explain why the PC kobold lacks darkvision, when seemingly other kobolds do not. Even if the kobold writeup is only used for NPCs, it's still a problem if you apply it literally, and suddenly you have NPC kobolds who also cannot see in the kobold tunnels.

The minotaur thing is less of an issue, but it's still annoying. PC minotaurs should be able to use weapons off of dead NPC minotaurs. Apparently, that's not a problem since the MM minotaurs use normal-sized weapons. However, if they are led by an NPC minotaur with an oversized weapon, the PC can't use it. If it's an ability unique to that NPC, that's not a problem. Strong minotaur, I guess. But the ability applies to all NPC minotaurs. How is it, then, that all NPC minotaurs, regardless of role or other abilities, have this ability, but PCs do not? It also raises an interesting question... do you allow monster minotaurs to wield oversized weapons? If not, the only problem is inconsistency. Minotaur brutes, apparently, are not as boss as minotaur rogues. If you do... then we're back to square one. Why does the PC minotaur appear to suffer from some sort of disability, even if he is a fantastically powerful minotaur barbarian?

Someone asked for more examples... Sorry. I haven't really kept up with 4e. I'm curious from a design standpoint, and I like to stay current on useful topics of geekly conversation, but since I don't actually play it, I don't have a good grasp for the PHB and MM from memory.