Revisionist game publishing

[AntiStateQuixote]

As to the original issue there is no coresponding benefit gained to offset the inability to use oversized weapons so the player does indeed play a lesser version of that race.

The minotaur gains the ability to take a PC class and gain levels which more than out weighs the ability to wield over-sized weapons.

 

[ExploderWizard]

The minotaur gains the ability to take a PC class and gain levels which more than out weighs the ability to wield over-sized weapons.

What if it worked the other way?

Eladrin are a PC race. Thier teleport ability is inherent to the race. What if NPC Eladrin couldn't teleport because they were NPC's?

 

[billd91]

Careful there. That logic has weaknesses. Is a human with only one leg less of a human?

He is if he had to lose the leg to become a PC rather than an NPC. PC versions of races should not be like the NPC race with physical disabilities tacked on.

 

[Obryn]

Is a human with only one leg less of a human?

By weight, at least!

-O

 

[AntiStateQuixote]

What if it worked the other way?

Eladrin are a PC race. Thier teleport ability is inherent to the race. What if NPC Eladrin couldn't teleport because they were NPC's?

Actually, Eladrin have several PC-race specific advantages that their NPC versions don't typically get. Fey Step is not one of them, but the following things are:

+1 to will defense
+2 to arcana and history skill checks
+2 Dex and +2 Int
bonus trained skill
proficiency with the longsword

The "inherent to the race" power that minotaur characters get is their charge power.

Anyhow, comparing rules for the DM and rules for the players just doesn't work in 4e, and that's a good thing. The players' rules focus on game balance between PCs and a baseline of expected "power" by level. The DM's rules focus on making interesting, fun and challenging encounters for the PCs.

Apparently someone thought letting a PC wield an over-sized weapon was a bad idea. Based on some of the nightmare builds I can recall from 3e, I'd guess that someone was right.

 

[Obryn]

Eladrin are a PC race. Thier teleport ability is inherent to the race. What if NPC Eladrin couldn't teleport because they were NPC's?

There may, indeed, be Eladrin who can't teleport. If we see any, I won't throw rocks at WotC.

Unlike in 3e, there's no real way to make a monster PC in 4e, without jumping through some hoops or reskinning. And neither monsters nor NPCs are generally built in the same way as PCs. The stuff at the back of the MM is to help DMs make monster NPCs, and (probably) to satisfy people who wanted to play gnomes before PHB2. They weren't playtested, and there's a big warning at the front of the section cautioning against using them for PCs.

Now, if there were an assumption that PCs, NPCs, and monsters are built in the same way - like there is in 3.5 - this would be a perfectly valid complaint. Since this isn't a 4e assumption, you can no more make a giant-weapon-wielding minotaur than you can a Ghaele of Winter or a Kobold Dragonshield. Players simply don't make their characters using the same rules as DMs do when making monsters and NPCs.

-O

 

[ExploderWizard]

Actually, Eladrin have several PC-race specific advantages that their NPC versions don't typically get. Fey Step is not one of them, but the following things are:

+1 to will defense
+2 to arcana and history skill checks
+2 Dex and +2 Int
bonus trained skill
proficiency with the longsword

The "inherent to the race" power that minotaur characters get is their charge power.

Anyhow, comparing rules for the DM and rules for the players just doesn't work in 4e, and that's a good thing. The players' rules focus on game balance between PCs and a baseline of expected "power" by level. The DM's rules focus on making interesting, fun and challenging encounters for the PCs.

Apparently someone thought letting a PC wield an over-sized weapon was a bad idea. Based on some of the nightmare builds I can recall from 3e, I'd guess that someone was right.

It may very well be too powerful an ability to give a PC. In that case a DM has the right to disallow minotaurs as PC's or rule that certain abilities only become available at level X (roughly equal to the creature's normal level).

So perhaps a 1st level PC minotaur isn't beefy enough to use the grownup toys but by level 9 or 10 might be able to do so.

 

[AntiStateQuixote]

So perhaps a 1st level PC minotaur isn't beefy enough to use the grownup toys but by level 9 or 10 might be able to do so.

Sounds like a paragon tier feat to me!

 

[ExploderWizard]

Sounds like a paragon tier feat to me!

A workable solution. Also in keeping with the advice in the 1E DMG regarding the monster as a player character.



............and a whole lot better than a mini-taur.

 

[renau1g]

As an FYI, I believe Goring Charge was added as well as some skill bonuses to the full write-up so it's not like they lost oversized without compensation, plus they now have access to a bunch of cool racial feats that weren't around before.