Reviving Greyhawk: A letter-writing campaign.

[Erik Mona]

Howdy, folks. I obviously have a lot of strong thoughts on the matter, but I'm on deadline and don't have much time to post. I will say this, however:

>>>
Lots of sales right? Nope. To date, despite being one of the first books out of the gate for WotC sales have not warrented a second printing.
>>>

I'm not sure that's an entirely fair assessment. While I can't divulge sales figures (and don't have them handy even if I could), the LGG sold in the multiple tens of thousands of copies (not too bad with absolutely no advertising or internal support, but there you have it). I have strong reason to believe that a new GH hardcover would sell well enough to justify doing it, but with a new campaign setting on the way and Forgotten Realms going full throttle, I just don't think it's in the cards any time soon.

As it was explained to me, the LGG isn't in print not because it was a poor seller, but because most of the audience for that product already has the book, so after a while sales tapered off to the point that a reprint wouldn't bring in the steady revenue needed to cover a second printing of multiple tens of thousands of copies. That money would be better spent on printing a few thousand more of the latest, greatest hardcover, from a business perspective.

These days, WotC needs a campaign setting that can bring in millions of dollars in novels, miniatures, and game product sales. They've got one of those with FR, and are building another one with Eberron. They don't seem to have the capacity or interest in doing it for Greyhawk.

A compilation of LGJ articles, on the other hand, is certainly an interesting suggestion, and one I'm following with some degree of enthusiasm.

--Erik

 

[The Blue Elf]

Maybe the setting isn't as popular as folks think it is...

Sure it is, but why would a PC game development company known as troika games and Atari are Developing a game title known as "Greyhawk: The Temple of Elemental Evil "?

Here is the link http://www.greyhawkgame.com/


And why would wizard never bother to tell anyone about this?

 

[jokamachi]

I imagine WotC would look at your request as a bit iffy. From a certain point of view, there's more Greyhawk material in print for 3e than any other setting. It's just your misfortune to not particularly like what they've done, and to want something else that they haven't.

I like the titles in the core line, but as for specific Greyhawk products, it's a matter of doing something well. When a product line receives less and less money, it's doomed to failure. Sure, you can simply retort by saying that people don't like the setting, but I don't believe that's the case. Wotc does not provide enough money or attention to Greyhawk for its products to truly succeed. Consequesntly, people will look to other settings for an adequate level of support and/or development.

How many people complain about the development of the Scarred Lands? What about Midnight? What about Forgotten Realms? Those are well-developed settings that have received the proper attention for them to succeed. People are happy to buy the books for those settings because they are eager to see what has been done with them. Conversely, calling Greyhawk a static world is a narrow view at best and shows a disregard for the people who love the setting and wish to see further development.

As for past Greyhawk "failures," nearly all of my friends purchased A Player's Guide to Greyhawk and The Adventure Begins. They also have the box sets from the eighties and the early nineties. They don't religiously subscribe to canon (or the current time-line), but they were eager to see the development of the setting, and in most cases, they liked it.

People snatch up classic Greyhawk products on eBay because they crave contiguity and they don't have access to recent products other than the LGG. Wotc should cater to its fans, it shouldn't be the other way around. Seems like people have been led to believe that's the only way it works in business, but the fact remains, a company that does not support its products is doomed to see them fail.

If Wotc put the same money into Greyhawk that FR currently enjoys, there wouldn't be so many diseenting views on this issue; the message boards would not be stewing with discontent as they have been for the past three years.

A lot of people were led to believe that Greyhawk would be restored to its former glory when 3e was released. Sure, it was a marketing ploy designed to catch the old-timers and draw them into the new edition, but Wotc's follow-through has been so laughable that it merits the sort of discord you are now reading. They made promises and reneged even as the ink was drying on the first release of core books.

A setting without support dies. That's why Greyhawk fans need to remind Wotc that there are people who wish to see the continued growth of this classic setting. It doesn't have to be minutely detailed development, but it should be the minimal support a product like Greyhawk merits.

Once again, if you love Greyhawk, make your feelings known. Take the time to write to Wotc.

 

[Olive]

A compilation of LGJ articles, on the other hand, is certainly an interesting suggestion, and one I'm following with some degree of enthusiasm.

I'd be very into this, and while you're at it/beofre hand, how about a 3.5 update to the fiend sage articles? And getting SKR to do more. I know he's into it...

 

[Reprisal]

The Blue Elf, thanks for the link, I suppose I'm not as close to the mark as I once was... but is Monte still able/allowed to write stuff for WotC. I would assume so, just as a Freelancer, but I'm not entirely certain.

Thanks,

- Rep.

 

[The Blue Elf]

The Blue Elf, thanks for the link, I suppose I'm not as close to the mark as I once was... but is Monte still able/allowed to write stuff for WotC. I would assume so, just as a Freelancer, but I'm not entirely certain.

Thanks,

- Rep.

Well, this was linked by Monte Cooks site right Here, you will find it under Text "…and elsewhere on the Web " In small text... saying "Interview at the home of Gord the Rogue" also here the site.

http://members.aol.com/CultOfTheDragon/index.html

 

[Desdichado]

See, jokamachi, that's where your argument falls flat. You say support is what makes a campaign popular and healthy, and you list Scarred Lands and Midnight as examples. Scarred Lands works for your example, but Midnight totally does not -- there's only four products that are coming out for the campaign settingever.

I still believe that if people want to play Greyhawk, they've got more than enough stuff in print to keep them gaming for years. But that's not what you want, you want Greyhawk to be developed as if it were the Forgotten Realms. But what you fail to understand is that the detailed development is the core ethos of Forgotten Realms -- that's part of what makes the Realms the Realms, and why TSR originally bought the setting from Ed Greenwood in the first place. As I said earlier, lots of people who play Greyhawk are very happy that it's only developed to a certain point and then left to the DM after that -- that's the core ethos of Greyhawk. You are proposing that Greyhawk become the new (old) Forgotten Realms and assuming that if it was, it would be as popular. That assumption is, in my opinion, completely inaccurate, because it takes away the core ethoses of both settings and switches them. Fans of neither setting are likely to enjoy that.

 

[Alaric_Prympax]

A compilation of LGJ articles, on the other hand, is certainly an interesting suggestion, and one I'm following with some degree of enthusiasm.

--Erik

Hello Erik, let me say that my group and I would like to thank you for all your support for keeping Greyhawk going on some level. The old timers in my group love the LGG and LGJ; and the newbies seem to like GH better then FR. Apparently the FR novels turned them off on the setting. It's not that we've haven't given other settings a try either. We've played GH (2 different DM's), RL, SL, homebrew, and we're starting a LotR by Decipher soon. No one seems interested in play in FR eventhough I've got quite a few of the FR books (though not all of the them).

Oh, one more thing Erik and please don't throw anything at me , I'd just like to mention once again that I'd love to see a published map of Rel Astra in the future. I know there's no garantee that this'll happen; I'm just bringing it up and hoping one day we'll see it in the LGJ. Maybe one city a year? Just a thought

Thanks again.

 

[jokamachi]

You say support is what makes a campaign popular and healthy, and you list Scarred Lands and Midnight as examples. Scarred Lands works for your example, but Midnight totally does not -- there's only four products that are coming out for the campaign settingever.

Both campaigns enjoy heavy media and financial support from their parent companies, which is hardly the case with Greyhawk. The number of books, while important, is secondary to the issue; Midnight will enjoy more overall development in terms of support and advertising compared to Greyhawk.

I still believe that if people want to play Greyhawk, they've got more than enough stuff in print to keep them gaming for years.

By the way, how many of those older Greyhawk products are still being published by Wotc? How can those products provide years of gaming pleasure if they are no longer accessible to a mainstream audience? Not everyone has the time or the money to scour Ebay for such items.

...but that's not what you want, you want Greyhawk to be developed as if it were the Forgotten Realms.

Don't misquote me, Joshua, that's not what I said. I said "If Wotc put the same money into Greyhawk that FR currently enjoys, there wouldn't be so many dissenting views on this issue; the message boards would not be stewing with discontent as they have been for the past three years."

That doesn't translate into minute development. Money provides a wide range of support, of which sourcebooks represent one component. Read my first point again.

But what you fail to understand is that the detailed development is the core ethos of Forgotten Realms -- that's part of what makes the Realms the Realms, and why TSR originally bought the setting from Ed Greenwood in the first place.

Think so? Apparently you're not familiar with the names Blume or Williams.

As I said earlier, lots of people who play Greyhawk are very happy that it's only developed to a certain point and then left to the DM after that -- that's the core ethos of Greyhawk.

Obviously, this letter-campaign speaks not to them but to a different group of Greyhawk fans, one that cares to see continued development. The former are free to ignore this letter-drive, as are you.

You are proposing that Greyhawk become the new (old) Forgotten Realms and assuming that if it was, it would be as popular. That assumption is, in my opinion, completely inaccurate, because it takes away the core ethoses of both settings and switches them. Fans of neither setting are likely to enjoy that.

Again, you misrepresent me. At no time did I say that I wanted Greyhawk to become the Realms. I merely said that Greyhawk should enjoy an equal amount of support, which invariably bolsters popularity.

Lastly, you should know that there will be no winner to this argument. It is a subjective appeal on my part to rally support for a product I have observed to be under-funded. If people want to participate, I welcome their effort, lord knows Greyhawk needs it. If not, there are other threads for them to frequent.

 

[The Blue Elf]

Joshua Dyal, don't get bitter on the subject just because a one fan that wants Greyhawk back.Even if you made the point that It will never come back because of a sells slup of products, and Forgotten Realm sells well for Wizards of the Coast that won't stop jokamachi from doing it, or any fan of any setting thats likes it.

Sure, Canonfire showing suport on your side Josh thats because they feel the same way as you and thats really showing support on Greyhawk Canon Fire.I'm not trying to bashing the RPGA some of the moduals are made for Lawful Good Characters hell, I never seen one person play a PC assassin in the game in the RPGA. In the State I live in we are known as the Bandit Kingom should we be the bad guys since Iuz controls it.