Reviving Greyhawk: A letter-writing campaign.

[Desdichado]

I'm not bitter, I just think this is a misguided effort, for the reasons I stated above.

As I said in my first post on the thread, though -- if it makes you happy, knock yerself out -- write all the letters you want.

I'm not holding my breath to see anything change, though. Not only do I believe that there simply aren't enough Greyhawk customers out there, I believe that the core ethos of Greyhawk precludes it from being developed or supported in a way that resembles FR. That's two major strikes against the strategy from the get-go.

jokamachi: You can say now all you want that you don't want Greyhawk to be the next Realms -- but I'm not misquoting you there. I'm not quoting you at all, I'm interpreting your call to make specific books that have analogs in the Realms, i.e. Faiths and Pantheons. Frankly, if you're saying now you don't want the detail of the Realms, I'm not sure what you want anymore. That sure seems to be what you're asking for consistently in this thread.

 

[Joseph Elric Smith]

I'm not holding my breath to see anything change, though. Not only do I believe that there simply aren't enough Greyhawk customers out there, I believe that the core ethos of Greyhawk precludes it from being developed or supported in a way that resembles FR. That's two major strikes against the strategy from the get-go.

Well I certainly hope Greyhawk is never supported liek the realms. that has always been one of the great things about greyhawk, tht it was detailed to death.
Ken

 

[Desdichado]

I'm sorry, JES -- I'm not copying over here at all. Are you saying that FR level detail is good or bad?

For that matter, FR isn't really that detailed. In 3e, at least, there's plenty of things that have been left open for DMs to develop on their own.

 

[Joseph Elric Smith]

I'm sorry, JES -- I'm not copying over here at all. Are you saying that FR level detail is good or bad?

For that matter, FR isn't really that detailed. In 3e, at least, there's plenty of things that have been left open for DMs to develop on their own.

I think to much detail is bad, and while so far there has not been a lot of new detail added to FR, how much more could they possible add, when you look at the stuff they have already detailed for it? I think that they started to add too much detail to Greyhawk when they did FTA, with the march land supplement etc. I hear people saying Greyhawk needs more,but I have to wonder, have you really used all the material that is out there and have now run out? My goodness, I set most of my campaigns in greyhawk, because I am lazy, and the maps and gods are already done for me , but I have never had a problem of running out of material or ideas. there are so many modules ,and hooks in the various books , and with the LGG , and deity download from wotc if you need it, to bring a lot of the material up to 3rd edition and save the Dm a bit of conversion work. wow I can't imagine running out of stuff to do, my problem is finding time to do all the stuff that is available
ken

 

[Desdichado]

That's kinda my point -- Greyhawk doesn't really need more support; it's got tons of support, and if it got more, it would rather quickly grow to 2e FR level detail, which is exactly what most remaining Greyhawk fans don't want. Ergo, as I said, I think this attempt is completely misguided. Even if it were successful, which it has no shot at being, it would actually be worse for Greyhawk if it were.

 

[Melkor]

That's kinda my point -- Greyhawk doesn't really need more support; it's got tons of support, and if it got more, it would rather quickly grow to 2e FR level detail, which is exactly what most remaining Greyhawk fans don't want. Ergo, as I said, I think this attempt is completely misguided. Even if it were successful, which it has no shot at being, it would actually be worse for Greyhawk if it were.

I agree with many of the points that have been made on this thread.

It would be nice to see the Gazeteer and Living Greyhawk Guide that came out for 3rd edition redone as a single hardbound book, with better art, and maps that were a bit sturdier. That would leave out most of the detail as it seems Greyhawk fans want, and it would provide a way to introduct new players to the Greyhawk setting.

Is it going to happen ? I really, really doubt it.

 

[Joseph Elric Smith]

I agree with many of the points that have been made on this thread.

It would be nice to see the Gazeteer and Living Greyhawk Guide that came out for 3rd edition redone as a single hardbound book, with better art, and maps that were a bit sturdier. That would leave out most of the detail as it seems Greyhawk fans want, and it would provide a way to introduct new players to the Greyhawk setting.

Is it going to happen ? I really, really doubt it.

Well I can't disagree with wanting a better map, or seeing the journals reprinted, of course I have my original maps hung in picture frames over my dining room That is one of the nice things about the esd program, and the various Triad web sites that have their own gazetteers is that it get materials in the hand of those who are interested in it.
ken

 

[Desdichado]

Well, there's that too. Do you want 3e Greyhawk mechanics? Core rules do that, and the "core" supplements are also Greyhawk default. Do you want more fluff? All the older material still applies in that regard. Really, what more does the setting need at this point?

 

[The Blue Elf]

I checked out Amazon.com the other day, and I searched some greyhawk Novels I notice the sales ranking on the Novels on Amazon here is the sales ranking by title.

Note: these are people who buy from Amazon .com by sells.



The Tomb of Horrors
by Keith Francis Strohm
Amazon.com Sales Rank: 153,393


Against the Giants
by Ru Emerson
Amazon.com Sales Rank: 111,852

Queen of the Demonweb Pits
by Paul Kidd
Amazon.com Sales Rank: 61,381

Descent into the Depths of the Earth
by Paul Kidd
Amazon.com Sales Rank: 75,141

The Temple of Elemental Evil
by Thomas M. Reid
Amazon.com Sales Rank: 83,304

Keep on the Borderlands
by Ru Emerson
Amazon.com Sales Rank: 140,948

White Plume Mountain
by Paul Kidd
Amazon.com Sales Rank: 73,161

TSR side
Saga of Old City (Greyhawk Adventures Novels, Book 1)
by Gary Gygax
Amazon.com Sales Rank: 262,860

The Eyes Have It (A Greyhawk Adventures Novel)
by Rose Estes
Amazon.com Sales Rank: 566,483

Sea of Death
by Gary Gygax
Amazon.com Sales Rank: 555,878


These are just some examples I seem to notice some of them were sold at a cheeper price for used, others sold for 6.99. I guess you could be right on the button.But it does sell well at a cheeper price then others.


Here is another example on Campaign Books on both sides FR and LG.

Living Greyhawk Gazetteer (Dungeons & Drangons: Living Greyhawk Campaign)
by Erik Mona (Editor), Frederick Weining, Gary Holian, Sean K Reynolds
Amazon.com Sales Rank: 47,476

Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (Dungeons & Dragons)
by Ed Greenwood, Skip Williams, Sean K Reynolds, Rob Heinsoo
Amazon.com Sales Rank: 4,011

 

[jokamachi]

Howdy, folks. I obviously have a lot of strong thoughts on the matter, but I'm on deadline and don't have much time to post. I will say this, however:

>>>
Lots of sales right? Nope. To date, despite being one of the first books out of the gate for WotC sales have not warrented a second printing.
>>>

I'm not sure that's an entirely fair assessment. While I can't divulge sales figures (and don't have them handy even if I could), the LGG sold in the multiple tens of thousands of copies (not too bad with absolutely no advertising or internal support, but there you have it). I have strong reason to believe that a new GH hardcover would sell well enough to justify doing it, but with a new campaign setting on the way and Forgotten Realms going full throttle, I just don't think it's in the cards any time soon.

As it was explained to me, the LGG isn't in print not because it was a poor seller, but because most of the audience for that product already has the book, so after a while sales tapered off to the point that a reprint wouldn't bring in the steady revenue needed to cover a second printing of multiple tens of thousands of copies. That money would be better spent on printing a few thousand more of the latest, greatest hardcover, from a business perspective.

These days, WotC needs a campaign setting that can bring in millions of dollars in novels, miniatures, and game product sales. They've got one of those with FR, and are building another one with Eberron. They don't seem to have the capacity or interest in doing it for Greyhawk.

A compilation of LGJ articles, on the other hand, is certainly an interesting suggestion, and one I'm following with some degree of enthusiasm.

--Erik

Hi Erik,

Thanks for chiming in on this effort. I think you made an interesting point regarding Greyhawk sales. Despite the utter lack of support from Wotc, Greyhawk fans still made the LGG a reasonably successful publication. Of course, if the comapany had actually supported the product, who knows where the setting would be today.

Eberron certainly seems to say that Wotc hasn't given up on camapign settings, they're just not as focused on Greyhawk as we would like them to be.

But of course I hope the fans can change that. Naturally, I would like to see more from Wotc concerning Greyhawk. The articles that you and Gary have written are of the highest quality and it would be great if that material could see print in a compilation. I just finished Gary's article on Keoland, a sharp piece that shouldn't be relegated to merely a download or a back copy of the LGJ.

Here's hoping you can sway the people in charge that there are buyers for future Greyhawk products. We'll do our best to make that known as a consumer base.

Jokamachi


Lastly, it would be nice if we could hear more on this thread from the Living Campaign players, as their thoguhts on the living camapign are essential to this type of dialogue. If you play in the living camapign, perhaps you could log in and share some of your thoughts on the current incarantion of Greyhawk and what you'd like to see in the near future. Thanks.