Reworking Summon spells

[Celebrim]

I have two basic problems with the Summon Monster spells:

1) They are mechanically time consuming. I treat this as a table/game problem and only weakly as an in game problem. Mostly all I want is a requirement that the summoner have a stat block for the creatures he's summoning ready ahead of time (much as I require any spellcaster to have the spell description available at the beginning of his turn if he wishes to cast it). Provided he does that, I'm very flexible with what is allowed to be summoned; axomatic, anarchic, elemental templated, and the like are all fine just so long as you have everything ready and don't expect me to work out the math on the fly or to call a time out while you do so.

The only reason I might limit it further is because I like the idea of spellcasters having strong themes. However, at least for Wizards, I would make it easy to evade those themes if they really wanted to. However, that's just ideas I'm toying with, and nothing I've bothered to implement.

2) At low levels, the duration of the spell is too short to make them worth the effort (compared to color spray, sleep, etc.). I address this by giving the spells a duration of 4 rounds + 1/caster level. I'm ok with the uglier math. I also have various summoner boosting feats for those that want to go that route; one of them allows a summoner to turn the duration of a the Summon Monster spells to Concentration which lets you walk around with your pet until you need it.

Most of your concerns seem syntactic rather than semantic. You are concerned with how the spell is described and its underlying flavor in the game and less with what it does. I would suggest that the best way to address your own concerns is improve or change the descriptions of the spells, and not alter greatly the mechanical effects of the spells.

As for what 'Nature's Summoning' does, in my game it summons a being from the spirit world, which takes on animal form temporarily to assist the Shaman. If its material form is destroyed, the spirit certainly suffers pain, discomfort, and inconvienance, but it doesn't die.

As for where my concerns overlap yours, my only real concern with the spell is the fact that it puts intelligent beings in the position of doing things that they would not do. It hasn't ever came up, but if you want an evil deed performed, summon an evil being because I'll be tempted to flat out refuse to have good beings knowingly commit evil acts whether summored or not. And vica versa, evil summoned creatures shouldn't be forced to advance the cause of good. The unstated assumption of the spell is that the being wants to help the caster; otherwise, the spells would work like the Calling spells do.

 

[mwnrnc]

Ask yourself: Would you ever use this spell as a player given that it's now fairly limited and more dangerous?

I wouldn't. The main attraction of Summon Monster spells is the versatility since you have a good chance of summoning something useful for any given situation. This weakens a balanced spell by restricting what can be summoned, when it can be summoned, and how safely it can be summoned.

If you want to make magic risky and dangerous, that's your choice, but perhaps you'd be happier playing a game that's not Dungeons and Dragons, as it is built upon the assumption that the PCs will use a lot of magic, whether in the form of magical items or spells.

Fair points, but I think it is okay to have spells that are mechanically inferior to others if they achieve a unique or flavorful effect as I think people (my players, even) will still choose them. I believe they will still choose to play demon summoners even if the spell is less powerful or versatile than RAW and, perhaps, less powerful than other spell options for the same level. As long as they can contribute in some way, even a lesser way than ordinarily, I think they will be happy.

As for versatility, I think I can fix that by incorporating more demons/devils into the summoning lists. Maybe, as noted by others, it would be simpler and better to simply refluff the summoning lists. Instead of a fiendish rhinoceros for instance, the caster summons a 'bloodmauler' that behaves mechanically the same as a rhino but is, emphatically, not a rhino.

As for playing another game, would that my players were so open minded! Unfortunately, getting them to read another rulebook is like pulling teeth. Anyway, I like working within the D&D system, even though I may have to drastically change several rules to suit my needs/interests. Anything my players don't like can always be fixed or tossed out.

 

[Dandu]

Fair points, but I think it is okay to have spells that are mechanically inferior to others if they achieve a unique or flavorful effect as I think people (my players, even) will still choose them. I believe they will still choose to play demon summoners even if the spell is less powerful or versatile than RAW and, perhaps, less powerful than other spell options for the same level. As long as they can contribute in some way, even a lesser way than ordinarily, I think they will be happy.

Here's the thing: it's not just a less powerful spell, it's a less powerful spell that has at least a 5% chance of shooting them in the foot when the outsider succeeds on a will save.

If you handed a soldier a less powerful rifle than his standard issue firearm, he might use it. If you hand a soldier a less powerful rifle which also experiences a chamber breech before it discharges its magazine, he is unlikely to use it as people tend to dislike things blowing up in their faces.

Then again, I could be wrong.

 

[mwnrnc]

The only reason I might limit it further is because I like the idea of spellcasters having strong themes. However, at least for Wizards, I would make it easy to evade those themes if they really wanted to. However, that's just ideas I'm toying with, and nothing I've bothered to implement.

I, too, have toyed with this idea, giving wizards a thematic spell list. I tend to think Sorcerers would have more room to escape the themes, as they are untrained, natural casters.

As for where my concerns overlap yours, my only real concern with the spell is the fact that it puts intelligent beings in the position of doing things that they would not do. It hasn't ever came up, but if you want an evil deed performed, summon an evil being because I'll be tempted to flat out refuse to have good beings knowingly commit evil acts whether summored or not.

Isn't summoning an evil creature itself considered an evil act? Likewise summoning good? It's sort of fuzzy, but doesn't a good wizard summoning a fiendish creature make themselves slightly more evil just by summoning it?

 

[Empirate]

I, too, have toyed with this idea, giving wizards a thematic spell list. I tend to think Sorcerers would have more room to escape the themes, as they are untrained, natural casters.

Concerning your first point, I think every player worth their salt should be able to pick up one of the very generic classes (Fighter, Rogue, Wizard...) and flavor them up to become something very specific, very thematic.

For example, I'm going to be playing a Wizard shortly. His back story includes a friendly Genie helping out his family for generations, and every so often, a magic-talented child is born to the women in this family ("honi soit qui mal y pense!"). My character will have the Talent, which manifests as an ability to whip up desert storms, with the themes of wind, lightning, and the desert associated.
So I'm choosing my spells, taking such favorites as Shield (a small twister deflecting projectiles and even swordswings), Color Spray (not that colorful in my case, just regular desert sand blown at the enemies, blinding and choking them), Mount (a friendly white camel with a riding saddle, with the stats of a light horse), Silent Image (fata morgana!), Glitterdust (a great puff of glittering desert sand getting everywhere, especially into the eyes), Web (a hot wind carries up a huge mess of tangled steppe grasses and scrub), Gust of Wind (obviously), Invisibility (that's every genie's favorite anyway - shimmer as if seen through hot air, then disappear entirely), Electricity substituted Scorching Ray (sheet lightning!), Sleet Storm (dust storm), Clairvoyance (fata morgana makes the far seem near), Wind Wall (duh!), Ray of Exhaustion (heatstroke), etc.

You get the idea. Just spell selection and description of (mechanically unaltered) effects can make all the difference. Add in a gecko, vulture, or sidewinder familiar, and I'm set with my desert-themed Genie-Blooded Wind Wizard. Didn't even need a PrC to do that.

Isn't summoning an evil creature itself considered an evil act? Likewise summoning good? It's sort of fuzzy, but doesn't a good wizard summoning a fiendish creature make themselves slightly more evil just by summoning it?

Summoning a creature with a subtype gives the spell the corresponding descriptor. For example, if you use Summon Monster V to summon a Bearded Devil, that spell has the Evil and Lawful descriptors. If you use Summon Monster VII to summon an Invisible Stalker, then the spell has the Air descriptor, and so on.

If casting an [Evil] spell is an evil act in your game, then using Summon Monster V to get yourself a Barbazu should be done with care.

 

[Celebrim]

IIsn't summoning an evil creature itself considered an evil act? Likewise summoning good? It's sort of fuzzy, but doesn't a good wizard summoning a fiendish creature make themselves slightly more evil just by summoning it?

Those aren't really concerns to me. If a PC does actions, I can track their alignment drift (or not). No problem there.

What's more concerning to me thematicly is that as written, you could summon a being of goodness and light for the purposes of slaughtering the children in an orphanage (or worse, insert vile thought here). The action of the PC is clearly evil, but why is the being of goodness and light willingly cooperating in such an affair? I mean its one thing to have good aligned spirits willingly make sacrifices on behalf of a good conjurer, or have evil aligned spirits serving an evil conjurer in an evil cause. And it could be reasonably argued that a good spirit might do some good act without being aware that it was advancing an evil purpose, or simply even if aware still doing it for the purpose of that good act at the moment. But why would good spirits do what is obviously and unredeemably evil?

That concern isn't really over the alignment of the PC; it's more of a meta-concern at the world building level.

 

[Valathos]

D&D 3.5

In my opinion I think that summoning should be taken out or weakened for nonsummoner classes. Placed only into a summoning only class, The Summoner. Make loads more of summons for that class, make them last almost all day. Maybe make it to where they can only have one or two summons at a time. Like with the wizard they could make schools of summoning Nature, Nine Hells, Abyssal, Celestial, Undead, Elemental, ect.

Also implementing alignment based summons so if you are good and you continuously summon Devils and your alignment changes maybe you could add a summon bonus or some sort.

Most demons are only banished back to the abyss where they are cursed to stay for like 60 years or something. Maybe that is just the higher demons.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I, too, have toyed with this idea, giving wizards a thematic spell list. I tend to think Sorcerers would have more room to escape the themes, as they are untrained, natural casters.

I had a DM once who broke every summoning spell into the various elemental, quasi-elemental, alignment, and monster-type lists. Sorcerors had bloodlines, as well.

Upon learning a Summon Monster X spell, you actually learned "Summon Monster [X] (Category 1, Category 2, etc.)." Sorcerors' choices were limited based on their bloodlines (e.g., a demonic bloodline sorceror could summon monsters from the Evil or Chaotic lists). Wizards, upon learning the spell, could pick any two categories, and could learn additional categories as if learning a new spell.

My wizard, who started life as a ship's mage, had Summon Monster I and II (Water, Air) to start off with, and I learned Summon Monster I (Fire) from a captured spellbook. It was a neat way to handle things.

 

[steenan]

I think it is quite workable to change the summoning spells like it is described in the OP. One only needs to take care that players get something nice for everything that is taken away.

My suggestion:
- Remove Summon Monster spells entirely.
- Change Summon Nature's Ally so that it only summons animals available in the vicinity and they need some time (one minute, let's say) to come. Change the duration to 10 minutes/level. This way, it's not something you may cast in combat, but it is a long-term help.
- Create Summon Elemental spells that work like Summon Monster, but only summon various elementals. In return for the lowered flexibility, let the summoner command the elementals telepathically, without a need for common language, and maybe give it a little longer duration (4+level rounds, as Celebrim suggested).
- Expand the Planar Binding line so that it has a spell at every level (or every second level), with appropriate scaling. Change the hit dice based limit to CR based limit to avoid some problems with the original spell. This one lets you summon and bind demons and devils, more powerful and for longer time than simple summoning spells, but with a risk.