Rezzing

[Li Shenron]

I'm generally okay with rezzing for players, but for NPCs it causes a lot of problems for DMs.

I agree. Players want resurrection reasonably accessible because they don't want to lose their PC. They want to be guaranteed that at least they can bargain with the DM to have their character back, or otherwise not having to die in the first place. They simply don't want to die unless when they can decide when and how. They want to write their PC's story from start to end, which is at least partially legitimate.

NPC resurrection is done only because a group may feel that it is neither fair nor believable that the PCs are THAT different compared to the rest of the world, to be potentially immortal. But NPC resurrection is often no fun for anyone: no fun for players who maybe have to re-play the same adventure/battle, no fun for the DM who makes the BBEG finally rest but is left with the feeling that the BBEG cannot be that stupid and not having someone bringing him back.

Then of course, resurrection becomes a truly horrible gamist device if it's been used over and over for the same PC. If you die once and get "a second chance" it may be fine for almost everyone, but if you keep dying and coming back over and over, at some point it feels like your PC itself is a loser that cannot stay alive and is "rebooted" just to console the player.

Also, it'd be nice to see some serious discussion and a simplified system for running a game without any rezzing. Make it less of "here's some vague ideas, now figure it out on your own" and more "here's a system of changes you should make and how it will impact your game." For instance, codifying (and playtesting!) rules for what happens when a character dies and the player writes up a new character to replace the missing one.

I think the key problem might be in the image. Rules get changed all the time, but the problem never disappears. So maybe let's try to change the image, at least partially, so that you will not say "I'm dead" even when you are. "Coming back" will not feel that unearthly special, and coming back repeatedly will not outrage anyone. I'm not thinking about making it impossible to actually die, the possibility must be there somehow, but I'm thinking about changing the rules so that the party will be more in charge about real death.

I don't know if it works, it certianly would be nice to try... Anyway here's something I thought last week and posted yesterday over the house rules forum:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=207438

• 
  Characters are treated as DISABLED when they are between 0 and -9 hit points. Use normal rules for being disabled, including the restrictions of what actions can be taken (a partial/standard action or less) and the fact that doing a strenuous action will cause 1 point of damage.
  
• Characters at -10 hit points and below are MORTALLY WOUNDED. When becoming mortally wounded, a Fortitude save (DC 15) is required to stay conscious, otherwise the character loses consciousness. Another ST is required every hour.
  
• A mortally wounded character can take no actions (other than speaking), and is considered helpless. No healing spell can restore hit points to a mortally wounded character.
  
• A mortally wounded character dies within 1 day/level.
  
• Raise Dead removes the mortally wounded condition and restores the character to positive hit points (see Raise Dead description for details). Raise Dead does not return a truly dead character back to life. A character saved from death with Raise Dead suffers a -1 penalty to one random ability score; this penalty replaces the standard penalties from Raise Dead, but cannot be overcome in any way.
  
• Most save-or-die spells automatically reduce a character to -10 hit points, therefore making it mortally wounded.
  Ability loss/damage/penalty that brings Constitution down to 0, also works the same way.
  A failed save on a massive damage ST, also works the same way.
  
• Coup-de-grace and some specific spells (DM's call, for example Disintegrate or Power Word: Kill) do make the character immediately dead.

 

[Sun Knight]

Tell me again how religion works in fantasy?

-Will

Fantasy does not equal to a total absence of reality.

 

[wgreen]

Fantasy does not equal to a total absence of reality.

I never said it did. But I think it's a bit silly to claim that you know which parts of reality should apply to the subject of religion in fantasy games in general, particularly in the context of fantasy games in which gods are demonstrably real and grant their followers cool magic powers.

-Will

 

[Sun Knight]

• 
  Characters are treated as DISABLED when they are between 0 and -9 hit points. Use normal rules for being disabled, including the restrictions of what actions can be taken (a partial/standard action or less) and the fact that doing a strenuous action will cause 1 point of damage.
  
• Characters at -10 hit points and below are MORTALLY WOUNDED. When becoming mortally wounded, a Fortitude save (DC 15) is required to stay conscious, otherwise the character loses consciousness. Another ST is required every hour.
  
• A mortally wounded character can take no actions (other than speaking), and is considered helpless. No healing spell can restore hit points to a mortally wounded character.
  
• A mortally wounded character dies within 1 day/level.
  
• Raise Dead removes the mortally wounded condition and restores the character to positive hit points (see Raise Dead description for details). Raise Dead does not return a truly dead character back to life. A character saved from death with Raise Dead suffers a -1 penalty to one random ability score; this penalty replaces the standard penalties from Raise Dead, but cannot be overcome in any way.

Sorry, but this sounds extremely stupid. Disabled should not have such a large range. At most it should have range of 0 to the Constitution Bonus represented as a negative number, as in AE. -10 (or the Constitution Score represented as a negative number) should mean dead. Not mortaling wounded. If you are bleeding to death, or in the deep negatives but stabilized then you are mortally wounded. Dead needs to mean dead.

If the character is mortally wounded then he is not dead. If the character is not dead then why use a Raise Dead spell when the character isn't even dead.

 

[Li Shenron]

Sorry, but this sounds extremely stupid.

Ah, thank you :\

Disabled should not have such a large range. At most it should have range of 0 to the Constitution Bonus represented as a negative number, as in AE.

Yes, maybe 10 points of range are too much. But I think that the standard range of 1 is too small to make much sense. Make it 5, or whatever you want (I prefer fixed than adding one more variable into the rule, but that's just me).

-10 (or the Constitution Score represented as a negative number) should mean dead. Not mortaling wounded. If you are bleeding to death, or in the deep negatives but stabilized then you are mortally wounded. Dead needs to mean dead.

If the character is mortally wounded then he is not dead. If the character is not dead then why use a Raise Dead spell when the character isn't even dead.

I think you're missing the main point in fact, which is to (almost) remove permanent death without having to keep really resurrecting people. Just stop calling it death, call it "so damaged that you're out of the game for a while, and get a permanent penalty as a punishment" (and call Raise Dead something else if it bothers you). The penalty, by the way, could be optional and it's easily removable if a gaming group doesn't want it.

This house rule is based on the fact that many of those who hate resurrection, in reality they hate the image of it: they hate to think that it's easy to die and come back from the dead multiple times, because it feels too cheesy. They don't necessarily hate the idea that permanent death is very rare (for those who instead want permanent death common, then there is no benefit for this house rule).

 

[Wormwood]

Sorry, but this sounds extremely stupid.

Prefacing an insult with 'sorry' may not work as well as you think it does.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

This will never happen. A cleric of Lathander hate undead and agressively hunt them and destroy them. Alignment has nothing to do with this. This is their mandate from Lathander himself.

So the cleric will say, "Be thankful to Lathander, for he knows the pain and suffering caused by the undead, and wills his faithful to eradicate their blasphemous blight from the world! Remember the will of Lathander protected you during your time of need, and consider him and his teachings as you find your path through life."

Or something to this effect.

Alignment only enters into things when Ideals come into consideration.

Such as why should a Neutral Good god allow a C/N thief to be ressurected using their blessing? Does the thief serve the god? Does the thief respect the god? Or does the thief totally disregard the god? All of this has nothig to do with alignment, but with motivations.

So in my games, if you want to be raised from the dead, you better worship one of the deities, or you stay dead. Or hope someone has a wish they are willing to waste on you.

Cleric: Oh, great Lathander, my dear friend here has fallen to the spells of the evil lich who is even now poised to bring our world into an age of eternal night. I humbly request that her soul be returned to the world if the living, so that she may once again fight against his evil.
Lathander: Nah.
Cleric: Wha? I beg your pardon, oh Lord?
Lathander: Nope. I don't like her.
Cleric: But Morninglord, she has fought by my side against the hordes of this hated foe since I was but an acolyte, and since then she has saved not only my own life, but by her actions the lives of countless innocents. Her dedication to preventing this coming apocalypse is unwavering.
Lathander: She's a thief.
Cleric: Rogue, sir.
Lathander: Rogue, right. Damn edition changes. I'd better damn well survive this next one.
Cleric: Sorry sir?
Lathander: Never mind. Anyway, she's Neutral. I don't care if she's saved a million crippled orphans (although you might try Ilmater). All I care about is her alignment descriptor. You're just going to have to roll up a new...I mean, meet a new companion who will coincidentally arrive within the day and who will coincidentally have the same power level as you do.
Cleric: And if this new companion happens to also be a neutral rogue with eerily similar abilities to my departed friend?
Lathander: Who cares? Are you trying to imply something?
Cleric: No, Morninglord. Nothing.

 

[Li Shenron]

Also, you can completely ignore the first part of the house rule (that about extending the disabled range, and about consciousness). That part is there only because I'd also like to have a small chance for "deathbed speeches", and because I wanted to eliminate the boring stabilization rolls, but is not really the point of the house rule.

You could just use the following simpler version instead, and keeping everything until -9 as normal:

# Characters at -10 hit points and below are MORTALLY WOUNDED.
# A mortally wounded character is unconscious, can take no actions, and is considered helpless. No healing spell can restore hit points to a mortally wounded character.
# A mortally wounded character dies within 1 day/level.
# Raise Dead removes the mortally wounded condition and restores the character to positive hit points (see Raise Dead description for details). Raise Dead does not return a truly dead character back to life.

 

[Sun Knight]

Prefacing an insult with 'sorry' may not work as well as you think it does.

Calling an idea a stupid idea in now an insult? You can't insult an idea.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I don't know if it works, it certianly would be nice to try... Anyway here's something I thought last week and posted yesterday over the house rules forum:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=207438

• 
  Characters are treated as DISABLED when they are between 0 and -9 hit points. Use normal rules for being disabled, including the restrictions of what actions can be taken (a partial/standard action or less) and the fact that doing a strenuous action will cause 1 point of damage.
  
• Characters at -10 hit points and below are MORTALLY WOUNDED. When becoming mortally wounded, a Fortitude save (DC 15) is required to stay conscious, otherwise the character loses consciousness. Another ST is required every hour.
  
• A mortally wounded character can take no actions (other than speaking), and is considered helpless. No healing spell can restore hit points to a mortally wounded character.
  
• A mortally wounded character dies within 1 day/level.
  
• Raise Dead removes the mortally wounded condition and restores the character to positive hit points (see Raise Dead description for details). Raise Dead does not return a truly dead character back to life. A character saved from death with Raise Dead suffers a -1 penalty to one random ability score; this penalty replaces the standard penalties from Raise Dead, but cannot be overcome in any way.
  
• Most save-or-die spells automatically reduce a character to -10 hit points, therefore making it mortally wounded.
  Ability loss/damage/penalty that brings Constitution down to 0, also works the same way.
  A failed save on a massive damage ST, also works the same way.
  
• Coup-de-grace and some specific spells (DM's call, for example Disintegrate or Power Word: Kill) do make the character immediately dead.

That's kind of cool. You should take a peek at my wound point system. Sun Knight will probably hate it more than yours, though, because it makes it even harder to die.