D&D 4E Rich Baker on his 4e Warlord

[Rechan]

Abilities that happen a number of times a day equal to X + STAT BONUS are already common in 3E. There's no reason to expect that the designers will choose to go with a system that gimps characters with low or average stats. You're freaking out based on an assumption that the designers will take the worst of the 3E designs and make them standard, when you've got no real basis to believe that at this time.

Right now, all we have to go on are assumptions. And I'm not going to just Assume that everything is customizable and that you can just have a dump stat and some ability that your class uses that stat can just be dropped along with it.

Because that's just another assumption that may not be in place. I mean, if I had assumed fighters benefit from a high intelligence (as Mearls says they do not), I would be wrong.

Now, when Rich Baker says "my level 10 warlord had to sit around and cheer on the guys from the sidelines because he had several bad stats" (and his character has an 8 in one score, no?), then you will have ample reason to freak out. He hasn't said that. Heck, the notion that a character can't do something cool in 4E isn't something that's been suggested in any playtest report to date. Quite the contrary.

I am pretty sure they're not going to tell us "This wasn't cool, at all. Not cool. Nuh uh," even if it was. I mean, have any of the playtests said Anything negative about the system at all? But I'm certain negative things have popped up.

 

[Rechan]

Perhaps, but you don't need to do that in order to evaluate the likely effect of multiple ability use in every class.

I do to argue about it when the chorus keeps chiming in with "Compared to whaaaat?"

 

[Kintara]

Not cool. If the multiclassing is so perfect, it shouldn't matter which way you do it.

No, precisely the opposite. If it's perfect then I'm wracked with indecision about the pros and cons of both. If it didn't matter either way, then that's boring. Not perfect.

 

[Exen Trik]

The problem is that, once more, this is a hypothetical.

If that's how it is - if you CAN drop Bad Stat Dependent Ability X, great.

But we don't know if you can or not. And I don't want to bet the farm on that just yet.

Read the other part of my post. A few times. Make a mantra of it. Breathe deeply and let yourself be at ease.

Otherwise yes, I understand perfectly what the problems with the 3e monk are. And I imagine WotC does too. And it only makes sense that 4e will reflect the lessons learned from it. Nothing I have seen so far makes me think otherwise.

 

[Rechan]

Read the other part of my post. A few times.

You mean this one?

You probably won't be satisfied with that though

Otherwise yes, I understand perfectly what the problems with the 3e monk are. And I imagine WotC does too. And it only makes sense that 4e will reflect the lessons learned from it. Nothing I have seen so far makes me think otherwise.

Well, here's a fear.

Compare the Core classes in the PHB to the classes presented in later books. If you'll notice, the later classes are stronger. Or rather, they're not so restrictive. You could draw from that observation that, when the Core classes were created, they expected them to be more powerful than they are.

So who's to say that a similar assumption on the part of the designers won't also be made? That the PHB classes won't be as wonky in some manner?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Right now, all we have to go on are assumptions.

Does that assumption need to be the worst case scenario, though? For a guy who seems to be generally pretty optimistic about 4E, that seems like a weird place to immediately go to.

 

[Cadfan]

The fact that half elves "multiclass better" doesn't necessarily mean that they get some special "these guys multiclass better" ability like the favored class abilities in 3e. It could also mean that they have racial abilities which are useful to a diversity of class types, or that they have a wider selection of racial abilities which make them easier to customize. Don't know for sure, obviously, just that there are options.

If everyone has MAD then no one has MAD. And for the record, Rechan's paladin should have gone Str 15, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 12. Now every ability he has works, including spellcasting up to 4th level. Ability points from advancement go to Str (or once they bump Dex), and he hunts down a Cloak of Charisma whenever he finds the time, since it does double duty boosting his saves and isn't outclassed by a Cloak of Resistance. He will not be noticeably disadvantaged in the long term in comparison to a Fighter who's ability scores on the same point buy are 16/12/14/10/10/10. MAD in 3e is actually less common than people think, if they're using point buy.

Multiclassing does indeed look extremely different. I'm optimistic. I've never liked our current multiclass system.

He doesn't mention his heavy armor giving his wizard abilities any trouble. Maybe it still does and he just didn't bring it up.

Remember everybody, "Leader" doesn't mean that the character is the roleplay "leader" of the party. Its a descriptor used to denote "guy who augments the team."

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Compare the Core classes in the PHB to the classes presented in later books. If you'll notice, the later classes are stronger. Or rather, they're not so restrictive. You could draw from that observation that, when the Core classes were created, they expected them to be more powerful than they are.

So who's to say that a similar assumption on the part of the designers won't also be made? That the PHB classes won't be as wonky in some manner?

For one, the people designing 4E are the ones designing those later, more powerful, less-dependent-on-a-single-stat core classes.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I do to argue about it when the chorus keeps chiming in with "Compared to whaaaat?"

Well, what they mean is, who are these other characters who are going to be benefiting compared to the guy with his ability scores spread out, if everyone has a need for multiple good ability scores? If everyone is in the same boat, then there's no character who is breaking the game by putting all his point-buy into one stat. He's missing out on stuff he could be doing if he wasn't overspecialized.

That's why hong keeps asking you the same question. The character who has to put good scores in Int, Str, and Cha is substandard compared to whom? Compared to the rest of his party? No, because they're also spreading their abilities around. Compared to the monsters and NPCs? No, because they're designed on the assumption that they'll be facing characters who spread their abilities around. Compared to the one PC who puts all his points into Str? No, because by doing so he's not able to get any use out of his Int and Cha-based abilities. By specializing, he gets good at one thing, but loses any synergies or alternate abilities he might otherwise have had.

So who is your hypothetical character substandard compared to? You have avoided answering the question, and I think it's because you know what the answer is.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

The fact that half elves "multiclass better" doesn't necessarily mean that they get some special "these guys multiclass better" ability like the favored class abilities in 3e. It could also mean that they have racial abilities which are useful to a diversity of class types, or that they have a wider selection of racial abilities which make them easier to customize. Don't know for sure, obviously, just that there are options.

Well, they could have the Illumian "Hi! We're the multiclassing race. I'm a multiclass! Did we mention that we're all about multiclassing?" thing.