Richard Baker on Orcus and Deity Slaying

[GeorgeFields]

It looks like I'm in the minority here.

PCs killing gods isn't something I ever care to see in a campaign. Having gods killed by other gods / greater beings is open game. I plan to use Requiem for a God and have my PCs witness the death of one of their gods in my next campaign.

Demon princes and arch-devils are another story, though. I consider them just a step below deity status, but I prefer to have them beefed up a bit more than RAW have them.

As far as the top Demon? hmmmm, sorry, Clark, I'm going with Demogorgon over Orcus; nothing personal.

 

[DandD]

Oh, it's not that I personally like seeing stats for gods at all, or that I even like the idea of being able to kill gods to begin with.
If anything at all, D&D 4.0 should be critisized that they're still allowing gods to be killed, the same way as they still make Raise Dead and other non-transforming-you-into-an-undead-type ressurection effects possible, like in all prior editions. Those are sacred cows that still haven't been slaughtered. Perhaps in D&D 5.0, we'll see the changes needed.

 

[Desdichado]

That doesn't mean anything, I'm perma-banned there.

That doesn't mean something?

 

[Mouseferatu]

This all sounds so World of Warcraft. And so not the D&D I've been playing and enjoying for the past 28+ years. To each their own, I guess, but talk of god killing being enshrined in the rules is what first tipped me off that 4E was probably not for me.

As others have said, every edition of the game so far has given gods stats and made it possible to kill them. Heck, some of the gods statted up in the 1E Deities and Demigods were downright easy to kill.

 

[Mirtek]

*ups. Please delete*

 

[Mirtek]

Killing gods in whatever form has always been possible in D&D in all editions. Complaining about D&D 4.0 making it possible to kill gods is baseless, as you could do that in all prior editions too, and only the preferences of the Game Master and/or the Players involved decided if they really wanted to use those rule supplementals.

Well, except for 2e and it's

"Another interesting aspect of the gods is that they cannot be killed by anything save another god of greater stature, or by a god of any stature using an artifact. This means that no mortal may ever kill any god. He might be capable of inflicting enough damage to drive off or dissipate a god, especially if he is wielding an artifact, but the god will always recover from its damage. [...] The reader will note that there are no statistics for the powers and abilities of true gods listed anywhere in this book. This is because the power of the gods is such that it is impossible to quantify it. Statistics quite simply become meaningless when dealing with the gods." -> Legends&Lore/Faiths&Avatars

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Mirtek!

Well, except for 2e and it's

...mistakes.

"Another interesting aspect of the gods is that they cannot be killed by anything save another god of greater stature,

...and this was interesting why exactly?

or by a god of any stature using an artifact.

...apparently gods have been known to carry these.

So unless a god is an idiot and doesn't want to defend itself against more powerful deities its going to carry an artifact, negating rule #1 (can only be killed by a god of greater stature).

This means that no mortal may ever kill any god.

...so for those seeking to use 2E D&D to run high-level fantasy in the vein of Moorcock, Howard, Lieber, Gygax or even classical mythology. Tough.

He might be capable of inflicting enough damage to drive off or dissipate a god, especially if he is wielding an artifact, but the god will always recover from its damage. [...]

...so a mortal with an artifact can fight, wound, injure, defeat, drive off, dissipate or otherwise banish an immortal but we don't have rules for any of this in the book.

The reader will note that there are no statistics for the powers and abilities of true gods listed anywhere in this book.

...but we'll shoe in a bunch of bland "Avatars" and defeating one is supposedly meaningful, except that the god can just send another one (or ten), or just pull a deus ex machina and kill you itself for the affront of attacking its Avatar.

This is because the power of the gods is such that it is impossible to quantify it.

...so how can you tell Greater Deities are more powerful than Lesser Deities then?

Statistics quite simply become meaningless when dealing with the gods." -> Legends&Lore/Faiths&Avatars

...when we confuse pantheistic and polytheistic gods with monotheistic GOD to appease a moral majority that cares not a whit for roleplaying games.

 

[Klaus]

As others have said, every edition of the game so far has given gods stats and made it possible to kill them. Heck, some of the gods statted up in the 1E Deities and Demigods were downright easy to kill.

Yeah!

Hell, some of them were even in the Monster Manual/Fiend Folio (Orcus, Asmodeus, Lolth... with her whopping 66 hit points!).

 

[zoroaster100]

I'd rather have killable gods as optional in a supplement (which I won't buy). But it doesn't bother me too much that 4E have some supplemental rules for it, as most previous editions have. Certainly in my campaign I wouldn't want to have that part of the reasonable realm of possibility.

 

[dm4hire]

Lolth... with her whopping 66 hit points!).

I remember those days, and now she's all grown up and become a full fledge greater god. Brings a tear to the eye. Been a long time coming too; she's a fine example of climbing the ladder to success. Granted each rung was a dagger in someone's back she stepped on, but she did it all on her own.