Richard Garfield vs. Gary Gygax

[billd91]

I've heard this a lot. And I've always wondered... Who? What game? Other than D&D, what classic RPG's were produced in the 70's? Which one was going to be published right on the heels of D&D independant of D&D's creation?

<snip>

And even if I'm wrong... There's a reason we celebrate Columbus day and not John Cabot day. There's a reason why we give the gold medal to the guy that finishes first. There's a reason we know who Henry Ford is, but not the second guy to build an assembly line, etc. I'm sure someone else would have eventually invented the light bulb; I'm just glad that Edison did it when he did it. Ditto Gygax and Arneson creating the RPG.

R.A.

Well, according to Lawrence Schick in Heroic Worlds, major innovations in gaming that led to players taking on the role of individual figures on a miniature battlefield (mostly Napoleonic setting) were pioneered by Dave Wesely in the Twin Cities and Michael Korns in Iowa back in the 1960s (Korns is specifically dated at 1968). Dave Arneson was one of the guys participating in the games with Wesely in the Twin Cities.
The game Dungeon, designed by Dave Megarry, grew out of this in the days before TSR's involvement, though the game wouldn't be published until done so under TSR.
It's also apparent from the appearance of Tunnels and Trolls in 1975 that similar ideas were percolating around Arizona wargamers, making them quickly receptive to the same movement.
And actually Henry Ford is not the first person to invent the automobile assembly line. That honor goes to Ransom Olds in 1901. Ford IMPROVED it by adding conveyor belts to speed it all up and is the father of automotive mass production, not the assembly line. So it appears that sometimes you DO remember the second guy.

 

[Ottergame]

Well, according to Lawrence Schick in Heroic Worlds, major innovations in gaming that led to players taking on the role of individual figures on a miniature battlefield (mostly Napoleonic setting) were pioneered by Dave Wesely in the Twin Cities and Michael Korns in Iowa back in the 1960s (Korns is specifically dated at 1968). Dave Arneson was one of the guys participating in the games with Wesely in the Twin Cities.
The game Dungeon, designed by Dave Megarry, grew out of this in the days before TSR's involvement, though the game wouldn't be published until done so under TSR.
It's also apparent from the appearance of Tunnels and Trolls in 1975 that similar ideas were percolating around Arizona wargamers, making them quickly receptive to the same movement.
And actually Henry Ford is not the first person to invent the automobile assembly line. That honor goes to Ransom Olds in 1901. Ford IMPROVED it by adding conveyor belts to speed it all up and is the father of automotive mass production, not the assembly line. So it appears that sometimes you DO remember the second guy.

You never remember the inventors of things, you remember the ones who made an assload of money off it first.

 

[marketingman]

Let's see, we've got:

Empire of the Petal Throne (1975): came after D&D, was mechanically based on D&D, and was produced by G.G.'s company, TSR.

Chivalry & Sorcery (1977): came out a full 4 years after D&D was first published. Is there any chance that the impetus for its publication might have had a little something to do with D&D's popularity?

Runequest (1978): now a full 5 years after D&D's first publication, with BRP rules with a few similarities to D&D (attributes, some with the same name, ranging from 3-18, for example).

Metamorphosis Alpha (1976) and Gamma World (1978): Again, very similar rules to D&D and published by TSR.

Traveller (1977): Like C&S, does this get published (by the great wargaming company GDW, no less) if D&D hadn't already happened and become quite popular?

Superhero 2044 (1977): Grew out of a D&D campaign.

Boothill (1979): Another TSR game.


.

I think it's telling that Avalon Hill, the dominant gaming company of the time, refused to publish D&D (as did everyone else it was offered to), and was subsequently unable to ever develope their own RPG, eventually buying Runequest from Chaosium. And #2, SPI, wasn't able to come up with their own RPG, Dragonquest, until seven years after D&D came out. This doesn't indicate that G.G. and D.A. were a couple guys following the crest of a trend. This indicates to me, some pretty radical thought. I think it's apparent from reading the initial D&D rules, the subsequent Supplements, and the early issues of S&T and TD, that G.G., et al. were still coming to grips with their creation and realizing exactly what they had through 1976 or so.

And even if I'm wrong... There's a reason we celebrate Columbus day and not John Cabot day. There's a reason why we give the gold medal to the guy that finishes first. There's a reason we know who Henry Ford is, but not the second guy to build an assembly line, etc. I'm sure someone else would have eventually invented the light bulb; I'm just glad that Edison did it when he did it. Ditto Gygax and Arneson creating the RPG.

R.A.

R.A. Good post. You only forgot Gangbuster, MetaMorphis Alhpa,

It is just interesting that the comapny that passed on D&D AH is know a defaco part of Hasbro who scoffed at the Idea of not tradtional board games has to risky for development now they Own both companies.


Alexadre Graham Bell Beating the guy to the Patient Office by 30 minutes.
Tesla's Mental breakdown allowing others to develop TV.
Heddy Lamar Silent film Actress who developed the patient used in Cellphones and Torpedo Guidance systems in WWII.
Or the two other automaoblie manufactures that Henry Ford worked with before he started Ford Motors.

When you look at both men they have spawned industries from their imaginations that are enjoyed world wide others could have done what they have but they did not. Both deserve our repect but not worship. Neither wants our worship both would like our respect.

Their opinions are seeked by those who wish to have insight into what they think. It is a foolish man who does not seek advice from others who have made a differance in so many lives.

Renove them from the equation and see how it would be. We may all be on the inernet tonight have a disscusion about which dog breed is better or what color tulips will be in style next year.

I have made money off of both mens companies to support my wife and children, I have travelled these states and played the games they designed with people from around the world. I have laughed,drunk and argued with both of them. When sought they give advice freely and willingly for both are passionate for what they have done.

But that is all they can give some treat the encounter with these men has Mose coming down from the mountainm or Jesus talking to the Masses. Others see this type ofadderation and with sour grapes attack not to build the hobby but to protect they percieved slight of not being included.

Best thing is to play the hobby you enjoy and revel in it for "today is good".
For tomorrow is coming. (Oh next years tulip color I beklieve to be hot will be speckled peacg)

Now I will revel in my ignorance while you masticul.ate this.

 

[marketingman]

Well, according to Lawrence Schick in Heroic Worlds, major innovations in gaming that led to players taking on the role of individual figures on a miniature battlefield (mostly Napoleonic setting) were pioneered by Dave Wesely in the Twin Cities and Michael Korns in Iowa back in the 1960s (Korns is specifically dated at 1968). Dave Arneson was one of the guys participating in the games with Wesely in the Twin Cities.
The game Dungeon, designed by Dave Megarry, grew out of this in the days before TSR's involvement, though the game wouldn't be published until done so under TSR.
.

Well if you really want to throw out designs including wargaming you can track it back to Free War a miniaures trainibg sytle used by the Prussian Officer School in the 1860's to teach cadets about the fog of war. Random encounters on the field as they rolepalyed with the instructors about it with mini' of course they were flat minis toy soldiers were for children.

 

[jollyninja]

my 2 cents

the reason i know EGG's name and had not even heard of garfield until this verry thread despite having spent a few years as a booster pack addict is this in my opinion.

i played magic for 3 or 4 years and i have no clear recolection of any one game i played, nothing really amazing happened to form a lasting connection for me in the game. i remember the guys i played with, the food i ate while playing ect... but the game itself, whikle i could probably pick it up and play needing only clarification on some new abilities and terms, meant little to me. it is a quick short term game with little time investment needed and thus the games themselves are forgetable. like most games.

my first dnd character regrettably was a drow elf thief named Drazen who wielded two long swords (i'm sorry) who became the royal assassin for the character in the party who was a regent in the birthright campaign setting. which of course did not even have drow but i was a jock so cut me some slack, i lacked the pedigree to create a good first character. one year later my second character was an undead killing paladin named remmy in dragonlance. killing lord soth had a level of satisfaction i will never forget, i had 3 hp left and the rest of the party was dead. the next year i created Nach Dun, "great head" in klingon for the trekkies out there, a minotaur with the barbarian kit from the fighter's handbook. i still remember the charge attack, followed up with a deadly series of attacks with a club that killed the gnoll leader in a generic border town and a fleeing minion getting hit in the back with said club as he fled and blood dripped down the minotaur's face from his innitial attack.

if i sat down for a few hours i can probably name you every character i have done since with a few exceptions for one shots, ill advised combinations that were quickly aborted and very shortlived campaigns. in short for good or ill, dnd and rpg's in general fire the imagination to the point that they stick in the mind as though crazy glued in. while i dislike almost everything EGG has done professionally, if i were to meet the man, my only action would be to thank him for the thousands of hours i have spent playing the game that he was largely responsible for the original version of and wish him well in his endeavors. if i met garfield i'd probably throw out "like the cat?" and keep walking.

someone else might have come up with something to fill the niche that dnd did but the bottom line is, he did it. our society rewards accomplishment, not potential. he did it. he's the man! thanks EGG.

 

[marketingman]

forget Gafield Vs. Gygax

Moosehead the beer of champions.

The days of going to the Beer Store and getting Moosehead and some Pickled flavored Layes. Youse know what is aboot. Now you cot me jones for it.

 

[jollyninja]

sorry brother, i'll crack one open for you before i go to bed.

 

[Aaron L]

my 2 cents
-snip-

Beautiful illustration, and my opinion exactly, jollyninja. I despise any sort of collectitable game as a cynical excersize in "how do we milk the most money out of people for the least amount of value."


Oh yes, you win because you bought enough cards to get that special rare one. How skilled of you.


Bleccch

 

[Calico_Jack73]

You never remember the inventors of things, you remember the ones who made an assload of money off it first.

Yeah... I'll bite!

I invoke the almighty name of Bill Gates as proof of your statement. Did he actually code MSDOS? Depends on who you ask.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

not the assembly line. So it appears that sometimes you DO remember the second guy.

I thought the credit for the assembly line went to some Chicken Producer. They called it the "Disassembly Line"

As to his influence on current RPGs--i'm not sure that's something to brag about. This is not, in the slightest way, EGG's fault, but i do think that the very fact that most RPGs haven't strayed very far from the model OD&D laid down is a bad thing, not a good thing. The fact that i can pick up any RPG supplement published in the last 20-25yrs, save a handful, and it is mechanically similar enough to be mechanically compatible with whatever game i'm playing, has some good points, but also speaks to the lack of innovation in the RPG field. This, of course, has nothing to do with EGG, one way or the other. But i don't think it is an unquestioned good that a lot more than the fundamental concept (role-assumption with mechanical guidelines) has been copied by most RPGs. IOW, the fact that you can see his influence "all over the hobby" isn't necessarily so good. The hobby and industry would be healthier, IMHO, if there was more diversity. Think how much poorer fiction would be if everything was clearly descended from, say, C.S.Lewis--that's, sort of, where we're at with RPGs.

Have you ever "played" Tunnels & Trolls? I thank God that RPG's didn't stray too much from the D&D mechanic and veer toward the T&T mechanic. For the uninitiated during combat you get a total dice pool with dice contiributed by every character in the party and roll that against one dice pool for the other side. Whichever side loses has hit points deducted from ALL members of the losing side. Yeah... if you think D&D has an abstact combat system then you ain't seen nothin yet.