Ride by fly by?

[Artoomis]

Now, for those of us just not fluent in 3.5 (I still play 3.0 only) why does it matter going through the opponents square? Is there a new rule in 3.5 not allowing this? I know the "no two medium or larger can occupy the same square" but the ride-by is not going to occupy the square, merely travel through it.

There are two times when you may go through an opponent's square.

1. If you are at least two sizes smaller or large (or is it more that two times - I don't recall??) or:

2. You tumble with a DC of 25.

You cannot use "Ride by Attack" to ride through an opponent's square.

 

[Shallown]

I know our Ride by attacke rhas problems setting up his ride bys. he often has to get into position to do so.

I assume (just me now) that the closest point you can hit maintaining a straight line is where you attack. Becuase if you don't have a straight line you can't even start the ride by. After you start you follow the second condition that of hitting at the closest point.

Otherwise it is a near useless feat. Its tough enough to pull off with the new (3.5) charge rules anyways.

 

[WaterRabbit]

I want to explain more about how the 3.5 charging rules make Ride by Attack nearly impossible, whether on the ground or in the air.

It seems to me that you are putting on an additional restriction that is not in the 3.5 SRD that requires you to have to move into the opponent’s square. A ride-by attack would work like this:


Where | is the line of charge, * is point of attack, O is opponent, and X is character using Ride-By attack.

--|---
-O|---
--*---
--X---

CHARGE
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)
If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent.
You can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.
If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.

Note: bold is for emphasis. This would actually be easier for a same level flying creature to line up. Since the creature attacks from above no line of charge would enter the target space.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The problem is that the closest square where you threaten your opponent is generally one where, if you continued on, would take you right through an opponent's square. I'll try and demonstrate - X = You, O = bad guy.


Starting position (two or three-dimensional, it doesn't matter)

------
-O----
------
-----X

Closest square marked with an "C"

------
-O----
--C---
-----X

Not always, though.


Starting position (two or three-dimensional, it doesn't matter)

-------
--O----
------X

Closest square marked with an "C"

-------
--O----
---C--X

Riding By

-------
--O----
X------

Rideby Attack as written can work, without any rule changes.

Just not that often

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It seems to me that you are putting on an additional restriction that is not in the 3.5 SRD that requires you to have to move into the opponent’s square.

No, he's saying that the rules require, in most geometries, that the line to the closest space to attack passes through the opponent's space anyway.

You're not required to enter the opponent's square... but you are required to continue the straight line of the charge. And in most cases, that straight line does enter the opponent's square.

The example you (and I immediately after) gave is one of the few possible geometries where the line doesn't. But normally, it will.

-Hyp.

 

[WaterRabbit]

No, he's saying that the rules require, in most geometries, that the line to the closest space to attack passes through the opponent's space anyway.

You're not required to enter the opponent's square... but you are required to continue the straight line of the charge. And in most cases, that straight line does enter the opponent's square.

The example you (and I immediately after) gave is one of the few possible geometries where the line doesn't. But normally, it will.

-Hyp.

Agreed. But one of my points is that a flying rider threatens the square right below it. So, a flying creature that doesn't have to change elevation will not be restricted by those geometries -- all lines of approach will pass over the target’s head when extended.

Using a slightly different example – A character on a horse equipped with Horseshoes of a Zephyr could attack a target just below the surface of the water with a Ride-By attack regardless geometry. The horse will either pass by the target (4 geometries) or pass over the target (4 geometries).

A lot of the problems here arise because of using a grid to determine movement. If you allow sideslip movement – move one square left or right every 10’ without changing facing – during a charge action. It seems to me that the intent of the various move-by feats (including spring attack) is to allow someone to take a shot at their target as they run past without receiving an attack of opportunity. Otherwise, you would just overrun/charge your target.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Agreed. But one of my points is that a flying rider threatens the square right below it. So, a flying creature that doesn't have to change elevation will not be restricted by those geometries -- all lines of approach will pass over the target’s head when extended.

Yup. But again, this requires that the creature is flying at, say, 5 feet above the ground. Any other elevation, and extending the line of the charge will take him, most likely, a/ through the opponent's square, or b/ into the ground.

Once again, it only works for a specific geometry.

-Hyp.

 

[pyk]

There are two times when you may go through an opponent's square.

1. If you are at least two sizes smaller or large (or is it more that two times - I don't recall??) or:

2. You tumble with a DC of 25.

You cannot use "Ride by Attack" to ride through an opponent's square.

Ah, I see.

Looking through that section, I noticed you forgot two more (and it's three sizes):

Helpless creatures, and

Overrun: During your movement or as part of a charge, you can attempt to move through a square occupied by an opponent.

So, if one must follow all the rules of charge in a ride-by, why does this also not apply?

 

[AGGEMAM]

Overrun: During your movement or as part of a charge, you can attempt to move through a square occupied by an opponent.

So, if one must follow all the rules of charge in a ride-by, why does this also not apply?

Because you cannot Overrun as part of a charge.

Overrun

Player's Handbook, page 148
It’s not possible to overrun as part of a charge.
Delete “or as part of a charge” from this paragraph.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Because you cannot Overrun as part of a charge.

Man, I already said that on the first page... nobody pays attention any more

-Hyp.