Ridiculous amount of buffs

[Holy Bovine]

So does it affect thier ability to overcome CR appropriate challanges?

Not that i have noticed. may some fights have been closer than they would have been with a buffed to the max party but my players don't seem too concerned about it. The one group is at 15th and the other 11th and other than the clerics trying to get their Divine Mights off most fights start with blasting spells and melee attacks.

One thing that may be contributing to the lack of buffing in my groups (at least one of them) is the presence of a Dragon Shaman. i added a few extra auras (mainly stuff to help melee fights as well as ranged) and he seems to take care of the buffing (and healing - that fast heal aura is awesome)for the one group. The higher level group has never bothered with mass buffing even at low levels.

 

[Holy Bovine]

The higher CR monsters seem to be statted & CR'd with the assumption that the PCs are buffed but the monsters aren't. Eliminate buffs, monsters CRs should be around +2 to +4. NPCs are unaffected but you might want to be more generous with "+" weapons and armour than standard 3e - I mean +1 to +5 enhancements, not flaming shock fortification etc. Maybe halve weapon costs & make same as armour, as C&C does.

I've been running the Age of Worms campaign and my players rarely buff and I haven't noticed a sharp increase in difficulty. After reading what happens to some groups that play this my group seems to be either incredibly lucky or master tacticians.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I've never had a problem with buffing. It just isn't a big part of the group's tactics. Sure, at high levels there are a few things with long durations that are cast, but that's about it. Nothing that they can't do without if the duration ends or they get dispelled.

And CRs are fine. Buffs take resources. Resources that can be used for other things. Stoneskin is nice, yes, but so is a well played dimension door or resilient sphere.

 

[BlackMoria]

I have played numerous campaigns (from 1st to 20th) with our group and our group isn't into buffing that much, if at all.

We have done RttToEE, Shackled City and AoW and are currently in Savage Tide, on top of homebrew campaigns and the number of times people have cast buffed spells for any given campaign I can count of the fingers of two hands.

Our group feels that buffing up is sub-optimal. But that is our group. They would much rather fire barrages of scorching rays than casting bull strength or whatever to buff.

For Flexor: And no, despite a very anti-buff bias in our group, I don't modify published adventures at all to account of the lack of buffing and our group doesn't have any problems with the adventures at all.

 

[Umbran]

For Flexor: And no, despite a very anti-buff bias in our group, I don't modify published adventures at all to account of the lack of buffing and our group doesn't have any problems with the adventures at all.

I would hope (and it is my experience) that adjustments should not be necessary. Buffing is a tactic, but it is not the one and only expected tactic. If they aren't using their spells for buffing, they should be using them for something else - like the barrage of scorching rays - so that either way, the character's power is expressed.

 

[hong]

I would hope (and it is my experience) that adjustments should not be necessary. Buffing is a tactic, but it is not the one and only expected tactic. If they aren't using their spells for buffing, they should be using them for something else - like the barrage of scorching rays - so that either way, the character's power is expressed.

A problem at high levels, especially if you use published modules, is that most of the bad guys have resistances out the wazoo: SR, fire immunity, cold immunity, resistance to this, that and the other, plus all good saves. This doesn't really give the casters a lot to do in terms of blasting, so they might as well buff the tanks.

Unfortunately if you take these resistances away, then the casters can easily end a fight with one instakill spell, which isn't much fun for anyone else.

When 4E comes, all this wonkiness in how magic contributes to high-level combat will be fourth against the wall.

 

[Reynard]

I would hope (and it is my experience) that adjustments should not be necessary. Buffing is a tactic, but it is not the one and only expected tactic. If they aren't using their spells for buffing, they should be using them for something else - like the barrage of scorching rays - so that either way, the character's power is expressed.

The party I currently DM for has 2 clerics (of the same god, even). One is a buffer -- largely for himself -- and he becomes a front line pipe-hitter because of it. the other is a healer and utility caster, keeping the front line fighters pink and healthy. Both burn through their daily allotments at much the same rate, and both contribute to overcoming challenges in equal measure. So, yeah, I would expect that a non-buffing party should be fine in any well designed adventure.

 

[phindar]

When 4E comes, all this wonkiness in how magic contributes to high-level combat will be fourth against the wall.

This is getting to be one long wall.

 

[Chimera]

Yeah, I agree with Piratecat on this one, the best way to get rid of that mentality is to adjust the pacing of an adventure so that it's not an option to spend only 20 minutes a day trying to prevent the apocalypse. It's easier to do with some adventures then others but with RttToEE for example if the players know that the BBEG is going to do his thing in a certian number of days, they need to rethink their strategy. My players rarely have more then one or two buff spells active at any given time in the whole party let alone all that crud on a single character. I don't run many adventures where taking a day off is an option.

If you're the BBEG, you simply adjust your schedule and tactics accordingly.

It's like Spy Sattelite scheduling and Camouflage. You hide the big guns and alien UFOs when you know the sattelite is passing overhead.

So if you're the BBEG and you know that Bob and the Bunch are always scrying and teleporting at 10am, that's a great time for everyone to wander off for an hour or two. It's also a perfect time for illusions and ambush, diversionary tactics.

Then you know B&B have spent their wad, gone home for the day and it's time for the real men to get to work on Project Apocalypse.

Oh, and if they're really annoying, the moment they pop in to wreck things for their 20 minutes is the exact same moment that it's time for your group to pop into their homes, kill their families and steal THEIR stuff. (And maybe leave some rather uncomfortable booby traps for them to come home to.)

I'd say that it's a lazy GM that allows these things, but it's not that. It's the mindset that says players can do anything and are supposed to win because that's fun. Doing the kinds of things I'm suggesting just make players angry.

 

[helium3]

There's this 5th level spell called forbiddance. It prevents characters from using the scry, buff, teleport combo. At least, until they dispel the forbiddance.

But yeah, Umbran's right. Static dungeons encourage this tactic.

Also, if the party is spending the VAST MAJORITY of the day in one location. Why hasn't the enemy SBT'd them?