Ridiculous amount of buffs

[Harmon]

Nightfang Spire was perhaps the first campaign that we could tp out of to get rest and recover our spells, though we couldn't get everyone out, so our spell casters would tp out, and the Ranger would lead the rest away to sleep and rest in the snow.

It was never a buffing thing with us, it was just a desire to have our characters get a full nights rest to recover our spells and our health. The GM seemed to hate it, but made up for it by refilling some of the monsters in a weaker version, saying that they were just more undead. It took us a while to get through, because we basically had to clear the whole place two and three times, and after a while we were no longer getting xps for it.

Maybe we just have not figured out the glory of buffing- even though we use Cat's Grace, and such, we don't run because they have run out.

My suggestions to GMs with Players that buff and when duration ends, have the villians hunt them down in their Inn or tavern and attack them while they are sleeping or replace their InnKeeeper and wait for them to come back and drink their poisoned ale.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey JohnSnow!

How about a simple rule for the number of buffs (spell-provided) that can be active on a given character at once? Like, say, 1-3 with a few caveats.

For example, only one attribute buff at a time. If you are already the beneficiary of a Bull's Strength spell, and you get hit with Fox's cunning, your Int takes a bump, but your strength buff goes *poof*.

No combining barkskin and stoneskin, the one supercedes the other. And so forth.

I'm thinking, one attribute buff, one attack buff, one general ability buff (like speed), and one defensive buff.

So you could be the beneficiary of Bull's Strength, Haste, Magic Weapon and Stoneskin - but that's it. Categorize the buffs by type.

That cuts down on the management of high-level stats as well.

Hmmm...

Concept *Yoinked* for magic system in development.

I was thinking along similar lines.

In the Immortals Handbook I limit players to a maximum of four magic items at any one time.

What if (as you say) you could only have four spells work on you at any one time as follows:

#1: Body
#2: Mind
#3: Soul
#4: Spirit

 

[NCSUCodeMonkey]

Would it be too weird to consolidate the buffs into a handful of spell chains? Like an armor chain of 1st, 3rd, 5th, etc. spell level that grants a increasing flat AC bonuses and eventually DR effects. Have one that goes from blur -> imp. invisibility and one for attacks that eventually includes damage. Heck, you could probably do this with spells that already exist. Then make it so that spells in the same chain overlap (do not stack), like the protection and alter self chains. The attribute buffs could be similar to 3.0s psionic Animal Affinity, with the caveat that multiple effects from the same spell don't stack.

The result would be that only a handful of buffs could be active at a time and you do it in a natural, progressive D&D fashion.

Just a thought. The trick would be keeping WotC from adding 300 chains in the first splat book .

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

In the next edition of the game, I'd like to see some limits on buffing. Maybe one spell per spell level or something to that effect.

Yeah, you can try to get rid of buffs with dispel magic, but then we're just reducing the game to buff and counter, buff and counter.

Just limit it to begin with and move on to more interesting things.

 

[hong]

This is getting to be one long wall.

I've got a list.

 

[JonMonster]

When I ran RttToEE, I got sick of this particular tactic by the pcs: Wake up at 10am, buff to the gills, clear three or four rooms, and teleport back to town to rest for the day.

If they repeat the same tactics over and over have the bad guys figure out a counter strategy. In my campaign they'd get to use this three or four times before it started to backfire on them. Here are two ways that jump to mind.

Have your bad guy doing some scrying and communing to find out where these guys keep teleporting to and have him send a little surprise welcoming party to that location. Okay, all your buffs are gone so you blink back to the safety of the Inn. No sooner do you appear than you are attacked by a dozen hired assassins who are freshly buffed up.

A specific way to implement PirateCat's solution is put them into rescue mode. If the bad guy has captured a beloved NPC and let it be known that he is going to sacrifice said NPC at the stroke of midnight, then you can bet your personal d20s that they won't take a day off to rest up.

But if you do this, I'd break the veil a bit and explain to the players that you're not gunning for a TPK, you're just trying to add some drama and excitement.

 

[Maldor]

Contingency Teleport/Contigency HEAL/Mind Blank/Spell Turning/Non-detection/Stoneskin/Improved Inivisibility/Death Ward/Freedom of Movement/Blink/Fly/Pro Energy/Shield/Mage Armor...did you say you were attacking me?

thats 16 spell slots many of the effects are very short duration and some overlab

let see fly, non-detection and pro Energy is 3 fireballs a person wroth of spell slots

all this buffing has a cost and the reason they are leaving after a room or two is more like they are out of spells for the day then the buffs ran out

as the troll rust monster with a Anti-magic shell which of these two casted the personal range AM spell and if its item those are not cheep

bottom line for me i don't use buff much few IMO are worth the slot and i have more fun raining burning doom upon my foes

 

[NanocTheCivilized]

Unfortunately, you suggested using regenerating trolls and rust monsters in close check to your AMF. So your players end up grappled, naked and weaponless in the AMF. At that point, sneaking is no longer an option, although it's certainly a smidgen easier since you're not wearing that pesky metal armor. Retreating is, well, out of the question. Setting traps is simply delaying the inevitable.

Read the books. Trolls have a 10x10 Space/Reach. Rust Monsters have 5x5. AMF is a 10' radius emanation which is centred on the caster and moves with him/her. Check page 307 in the DMG - assuming a medium (5x5) caster there is room for a maximum of 1 troll and 7 rust monsters, plus the caster in the AMF area of effect. The rust monsters must move at the speed of the caster or they leave the AMF, so running away shouldn't be a problem. If the party scatter then only one member can be attacked by the AMF group at a time. The rest can throw alchemist's fire, shoot arrows, throw rocks or tanglefoot bags etc to enable a slowly moving tank to escape. Then the party works out a better plan that does not rely on buffs and returns to defeat the enemy.

And as for setting traps "simply delaying the inevitable" - that just reeks of defeatism. True, a trap on its own will probably not defeat the enemy, but it can disrupt their formation so that the party can attack (and that AMF formation is so beautifully grouped). It's also a chance for the party rogue to shine - to use Disable Device proactively for once.

In any case, the trolls/rust monster combination was merely an example.

You seem to assume that people with buffs always win. Curious.

No. I do feel that some groups rely on them too much, to the detriment of creative play and intelligent tactics. In the end - far from always working - this will eventually fail (unless the DM is unimaginative and uncreative).

And the fact of the matter is, you can't ALWAYS buff. It's a choice, and retreat isn't always an option. If you blow your wad too soon, then you might not have the juice when you need it. What if your opponent withdraws? Or worse, dispels? Or uses mooks to slow you down while your spells end or get dispelled?

Well, you're right to say Dispel is worse - mainly because it brings the game to a shuddering halt while everyone works out which buffs no longer work and what their bonuses now are. AMF is simpler in that it stops them all, so there's less arithmetic to do - the PCs just use their innate abilities only, which are right there on the character sheet.

Withdrawal is a tactic intelligent monsters faced by a buffed party should use whenever possible - and a smart opponent ought to have a prepared escape route for just this eventuality. This is good, because it forces the players to come up with a plan to trap or contain the enemy before starting an attack.

All of the tactics you mentioned before are equally available to your monsters or NPCs.

Of course they are - and the DM should be using them too.

Simply throwing them into an AMF - again - isn't very creative.

Nor did I suggest this. The point is that a party such as described earlier in the thread - which expects to buff, teleport in, fight the monster, and teleport out again - can be forced to think more creatively (and thus be more challenged and have more fun) by the occasional use of a spell or tactic which makes them stop and think - AMF is only one option, and I mentioned it only as an example.

Nanoc

 

[Numion]

My group uses buffs like crazy. There's even shorthand for casting all the buffs. "I cast hours" means the characters casts all his buffs that last 1 hour per level. "I cast tens" means casting all buff spells with 10 minutes per level duration.

It hasn't caused much problems, though. The adventures seem to take this into account. Even with this crazy spellcasting RttToEE was a meatgrinder. Total PC fatalities surpassed 30, I think. I thought it justified that the PCs buffed, cleared 5-6 rooms and retreated. Actually "one more room" became a kind of a dare for the PCs, because something very bad happened every time they contemplated 'one more room' and did it

Figuring the buffs for the NPCs was a bit of a work - but it depends on if the NPCs are aware of the coming PCs.

 

[jasin]

Higher level D&D isn't LOTR or Conan, it's Justice League.

This is true regardless of buffing. V. raise dead, teleport, plane shift, wish (limited or otherwise)...