Ridiculous amount of buffs

[zoroaster100]

The way in which too many buffs at high level bog down the game is the main problem I see with 3.0 and 3.5 D&D. I am running a high level game right now (17th level) and buffing takes a ridiculous time. At first I used dispel magic a lot, but that only bogged things down even more because then we'd have to check to dispel each spell, and then recalculate all the stats when we just spent a bunch of time recalculating when the buffs were put up. One solution may be to limit how many beneficial spells can be active on a person at one time.

Another solution might be to simplify how dispel magic works. Maybe dispel magic should be not a spell, but an inherent class ability of all spellcasters, and it should automatically dispel one or two spells of a level no higher than the caster can normally cast.

 

[molonel]

At about anywhere around 12th level and up, it becomes ridiculous. The higher level game ABSOLUTELY assumes that all pcs are buffed. As others have pointed out (the royale with cheese) my example was really "big boys off the top of my head" and did not fully flesh out all the options. If you have played above 12th, and ESPECIALLY above 15th, if you're not buffed to some degree, you're dead. It is just too deadly. For both villians and players the game becomes "how do I become immune to that" and "ok, they can't be immune to everything, so which thing we can do will work".

I agree.

I think a lot of people who haven't played a lot of high level gaming in 3rd Edition don't understand that the nature of the game changes substantially after 12th level. There are, in my opinion, several break points in the game where this occurs. Somewhere between 7th and 9th level, players become something else. That is why the "sweet spot" of D&D happens between 8th and 12th level, because heroes are powerful enough to do some really cool stuff, but they are still mortal enough that designing combat encounters doesn't involve a part-time job for the DM. The next break point happens somewhere between 12th and 15th level, where the game changes again. Combat encounters become progressively more difficult to design for the DM because of the time involved. The game changes one last time at Epic, or 21st level.

There's a number of threads out there about how to run effective high level games. I've posted in many of those, and will try to be brief. Many of the key ideas have been highlighted already:

1) Change the scope of your game - dungeon crawling is too limited in scope for high level
2) Anti-magic fields
3) Dispelling
4) Buff your villians
5) Employ more dynamic villians, especially BBEG
6) Where possible provide more "environmental" and "non-combat" challenges
7) Use MORE villians (ie, a typical encounter should outnumber the party 2:1, 3:1)

We call #7 "The Art of the Mook."

A couple of notes to those who've made comments: USING CHARACTER ABILITIES should not ever equal UNCREATIVE/UNFAIR/BORING. As a DM, I always assume if somethings put in the game, it's there for a reason, and it should be expected to be used. Characters should get the opportunity to flex their muscles.

I absolutely agree with this.

HIGH LEVEL PLAY is TOO COMPLEX

I know I'm starting to sound like a "Me, too!" but I absolutely agree with this. I don't like running 17th level and above, quite frankly.

 

[zoroaster100]

I'm thinking of tinkering with the rules for dispelling in order to try to moderate use of buffs. What if the area use of the dispel magic spell automatically dispelled one effect per creature affected, and the targeted use of dispel magic automatically dispelled all dispellable effects on the targeted creature? And what if every spellcaster could dispel as a natural ability without needing to prepare or know the dispel magic spell (but could then only dispel one single effect on one creature as a standard action)? Maybe that would make dispelling more commonplace and would make characters think twice about using all their buffs at one time before the fight starts.

 

[PallidPatience]

How would you handle Dispel's use as a counterspell?

 

[happyelf]

This is pretty easy to fix through operant conditioning. Simply make it not worth their while to retreat, by making the consequences of retreating worse than staying to fight.

It's even easier to fix with a simple house rule. Why waste time playing mind-games with your players?

 

[Reynard]

It's even easier to fix with a simple house rule. Why waste time playing mind-games with your players?

I'd say because "house rules" shouldn't be used to eliminate perfectly viable rules when simple adventure design and session control can be used to convince players that certain courses of action are better than others.

 

[dcas]

Buffing the tank was SOP in 2nd Edition.

Yes, especially with Stoneskin, because 2e "buffed" that particular buff spell.

 

[Agent Oracle]

This is pretty easy to fix through operant conditioning. Simply make it not worth their while to retreat, by making the consequences of retreating worse than staying to fight.

Hehehehe

I'm having visions of one of the keepers of the temple of elemental evil running down tactics in my head now.

"Listen, theres this group of adventurers, they raid our temple, kill a bunch of our guards, and then teleport out before we can kill them. They've done this twice now. So here's the plan; we move everyone into the back room of the temple. Take all the crap you can carry. Leave the walls BARE. Yes, I know what's back there. That's the point. I'm asking the big guy for help on this too. he's going to be watching the loot. We all leave at nine in the morning. And go hide about in the wilderness outside. When the adventurers come back, we let them go in. Count to a hundred while they wander around like idiots... then we all rush in and slaughter them from behind. I'll keep them from teleporting out with a scroll of Dimensional anchor I found in the back, and my henchmen will just keep hitting them with "dispells" until they die.

 

[Piratecat]

The only thing you forgot was "Remember to tell them that they're idiots for being so predictable," and "have assassins ready to strike when they teleport back to their inn rooms."

I love running bad guys like this. Planning what the PCs will do, then countering it, and considering their fallback plan so that they can counter THAT too, makes for a fun exercise!

 

[I'm A Banana]

Go play Iron Heroes.