rings of blinking and rogues

[Arcturus_Rugend]

Well, the rogue has 20% trouble sneak attacking while blinking...

The "no trouble" I was referring to was Plane Sailing's remark concerning visibility from the ethereal. Everyone still has a 20% miss chance when they're blinking, but they can SEE their target just fine.

And Blindfight as well as Uncanny Dodge and so do help, since you retain your Dex bonus ... thus no sneak attacks.

Uncanny dodge will not help in this case, as it specifically mentions that it lets you retain your DEX bonus to AC versus an INVISIBLE opponent, not a blinking one. This is further substantiated by the text of the blink spell which states that the "blinker is ethereal, not merely invisible." And the spell description also specifically mentions that blind fight is ineffective for this same reason.

 

[Destil]

See invisibility obviously works against sneak attacks from opponents who are invisible (unless the target is some other way denied their DEX bonus). The blink spell and the ring of blinking are a separate case, as the subject who is blinking isn't merely out of sight, they're rapidly shifting between the Material and Ethereal Planes. The spell provides information on what does and does not help against a blinking opponent. Blind fight does not help, and see invisibility is only partially effective unless you are also capable of striking ethereal / incorporal creatures.

The spell clearly states that you strike ""as an invisible creature". That's why it you loose your dex bonus against a blinking person, the 1/2 sentence of extrapalation is just there for convience, to see everything that applies about invisibiity you need to look at it's DMG entery. And if you have see invisibility up you can see etheral creatures, thus the perosn is always visible while blinking.

 

[Arcturus_Rugend]

Destil: see the above post.

 

[Plane Sailing]

As a point of clarification, I believe that the blink spell specifically disallows blindfighting from providing a defence against it... so while blindfighting prevents you being sneak attacked by an improved invisible rogue next to you, it doesn't help against a blinking rogue who is next to you.

also note - I'm not advising that it is a good idea to nerf blink for the reasons I outlined above, just mentioning it as a possibility that could easily be considered.

From a personal point of view, I don't understand why defenders treat the rogue "as if he was invisible" and are denied their dex bonus, because they can see exactly where he is, he is just flickering in and out of phase with the ethereal plane (so he is invisible 50% of the time?)

I think the Blink spell is far better than any previous versions of it, but there are some aspects of its description that I still find some difficulty with. Nearly everybody else doesn't have any problem with it, so I accept that the problem lies with me, but... ah well

(where is the smiley for wan smile?)

Cheers

 

[Hypersmurf]

The impression I get is that the "as an invisible attacker" is similar to the "trip attack" from the Knockdown feat. You use the mechanics of a trip - opposed Str vs Str or Dex - but you don't incur a counter-trip if you fail, and you can't use Improved Trip with it.

With Blink, the attack is made "as an invisible attacker", in that you get +2 to attack and deny Dex bonus... but because you're not invisible, conditions that would normally defeat those benefits against a true invisible attacker do not apply.

-Hyp.

 

[hong]

Uncanny dodge will not help in this case, as it specifically mentions that it lets you retain your DEX bonus to AC versus an INVISIBLE opponent, not a blinking one. This is further substantiated by the text of the blink spell which states that the "blinker is ethereal, not merely invisible." And the spell description also specifically mentions that blind fight is ineffective for this same reason.

The full quote is "physical attacks suffer a 50% miss chance, and the Blind-Fight feat doesn't help". Taken in context, that means that Blind-Fight doesn't help reduce the miss chance. It doesn't mean that Blind-Fight is useless in other ways, such as for retaining one's Dex bonus to AC. Much the same goes for uncanny dodge.

 

[Arcturus_Rugend]

In summary, have your rogue go get a ring of blinking and a ghost touch weapon (to avoid that pesky 20% miss chance) and enjoy the munchkiny goodness as those Fighters, Monks and Rogues with blind fight and uncanny dodge run in terror.

 

[Arcturus_Rugend]

Hong: Those pesky simultaneous posts.

I see your point about the context of the 50% miss chance, so I think it's open to a bit of interpretation here. However, since the Blind Fight feat specifically mentions that you don't lose your AC bonus versus invisible attackers, not blinking ones, I'd say that the feat is still not effective, much the way Hypersmurf describes in his post.

 

[Darklone]

Well... My common sense (sitting next to me) tells me that it's not easier to fight someone I don't see at all than someone that I see half of the time.

E.g. I am with hong. Blindfight does not help with attacking the blinking dude, but it surely helps defensewise. As does Uncanny Dodge.

And I really don't care about expressions like "helps against invisible ones but does not state explicitely it helps against blinking ones" as long as see invisibility helps me to see blinking/ethereal dudes.

Common sense may be a funny word related to fantasy RPGs, but we do look for an inherent logic here, aren't we?

 

[Arcturus_Rugend]

And I really don't care about expressions like "helps against invisible ones but does not state explicitely it helps against blinking ones" as long as see invisibility helps me to see blinking/ethereal dudes.

Well I can't make you CARE about the way the rules are written, only show you that they are written that way. I don't always agree with them either, but that's what house rules and rule-0 are for. But if you want to go by the official (3.0) rules, I'd stick with the way that things are written and say that neither blind fight nor uncanny dodge help, despite what common sense may imply. Hopefully 3.5 or R3E or whatever people are calling it now will clear things up or let common sense prevail.

Also, remember that spells like see invisible or true seeing will help you with a blinking opponent only partially, by taking the miss chance from 50% down to 20%. You'll need a ghost touch weapon or some other means of affecting an ethereal target to completely negate the miss chance.