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Riposte Strike, etc., and Page 57

Alraiis

First Post
Page 57 states: "Whenever you affect a creature with a power, that creature knows exactly what you’ve done to it and what conditions you’ve imposed." My question (well, ONE of my questions) regards powers like Riposte Strike: Does the enemy know that attacking you will provoke a riposte? The knee-jerk response I've heard is "everyone knows everything, so yes, they know" but I still don't buy it with the way the quote from 57 is worded.

Allow me, if you will, to over-analyze.

The "conditions you've imposed" part of the rule most likely refers to the list of specific conditions on 277, and perhaps conditions that consist of normal conditions with additional effects, such as "entombed" (Tarterean Tomb), which is a special kind of immobilization, or the given example of Divine Challenge, and perhaps Combat Challenge as well, which are special kinds of marking that come with additional effects. Indeed, the general definition of condition is as follows (also from 277): "A condition imposes a penalty, a vulnerability, a hindrance, or a combination of effects." Divine Challenge is clearly "a combination of effects," but is Riposte Strike one of these things?

If it isn't, then it must be covered (or not) by the phrase "what you've done to it." Is Riposte Strike's effect something you've done to the creature, or something you could do (or even something you've done to yourself: a buff, of sorts, that gives you the opportunity to riposte if attacked by the target) and thus something the creature won't know about until after you've "done" it? It's part of the "Hit:" line, so it's part of the power's effect, but is that enough for the creature to know about it? If it is, then this must extend to abilities like Dance of Death (rogue encounter 27), but this is problematic because any creature that knows the exact effects of being hit by Dance of Death will NEVER choose to attack the rogue--it will always be a bad idea--which seems to contradict the intended design, since the Artful Dodger perk only works on those attacks.

Also, quite a few "Hit:" entries have effects that are clearly buffs, not conditions or things "done to" an enemy, like Lance of Faith. Does the creature you hit know who you give the attack bonus to, and how much the bonus is for?

If the target knows about Riposte Strike, do they know about abilities like Hellish Rebuke (which triggers if anyone or anything, not just the target, damages the warlock)? If the target knows about Hellish Rebuke, do all its allies, because the power also triggers off their attacks? Is there a distinction between, say, Dire Radiance's damage and Riposte Strike's or Hellish Rebuke's? It seems like there might be, since Dire Radiance's effect specifically affects one creature (unlike Hellish Rebuke) and requires no immediate action or second attack on the warlock's part (unlike Riposte Strike), but these lines are fairly thin.

Does a creature observing a fighter with Rain of Steel active know that he'll be subject to attacks if he starts his turn next to the fighter? Certainly not, because nothing has been "done" to the creature yet (right?), but what about after the fighter attacks them once, since it then knows "exactly what [the fighter has] done to it"? Does a creature's knowing what has been done to it also let the creature know what it was that they did that caused this? Or does the creature simply know it took damage, but not necessarily why?

What are your interpretations and rulings? Are there clear answers? Have I missed a glaringly obvious sentence that addresses all of this? Discuss!
 

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My reading is that the creature knows the effects of the power that has already been used on it, including any modifications to that power. He doesn't know all the capabilities of the creature that used that power on him, however.

A Paladin uses Divine Challenge on me; I know that I am marked; I know that I take a -2 on attack rolls against other targets; I know that if I attack another target, I take damage.

A Wizard with the Lasting Frost feat smacks me with Bigby's Icy Hand. I know I've taken damage, and I know I'm grabbed, and I know I've been afflicted with vulnerable cold 5. What I don't know is that the wizard's rogue ally has the Wintertouched feat, and will gain combat advantage from my cold vulnerability. That's not something the Icy Hand did to me; that's something special about the rogue. Nor do I know that the rogue will get to sneak attack me.

In the case of Riposte Strike, I think the potential extra attack is specifically imposed by the power, and I'll be aware of it. It - or Dance of Death - doesn't appear to be sufficiently different from Divine Challenge to be excluded. "You're affected by this power, and as a result, if you do X, Y occurs." Which does make Dance of Death more of a "You'd better not hit me" power, rather than a "Surprise! You shouldn't have tried to hit me!" power.

A Fighter's Combat Challenge is, to me, phrased differently. You don'tuse your Combat Challenge power to mark someone. Rather, Combat Challenge modifies your attack powers to include an "Effect: You can mark the target" line. It also grants you the ability to whack marked targets who shift or attack other people. So if a Fighter uses, say, Crack the Shell on someone, they know they've taken damage; they know they're taking ongoing damage; they know they're taking a penalty to AC; and they know they're marked. Those are all effects of the power. They don't know that the fighter has the ability to smack them if they shift. That's something special about the fighter, not something special about Crack the Shell.

-Hyp.
 

It seems to be the case. This implies that the secondary ability of dance of death is for most part useless, since no monster would ever attack the rogue in their right mind.:erm:
 

There actually might be a distinction between Divine Challenge and Riposte Strike/Dance of Death. DC's damage is attached to the mark: a "combination of effects" that constitutes a condition. If your opponent removes the mark, they don't take the damage for attacking someone other than the paladin. Riposte Strike, on the other hand, can't be removed because it isn't "on" the creature at all.
 

Won't it still be the same thing? The enemy will likely know of the consequences if he tries to attack you while under the effects of dance of death. So at best, you just prevent them from attacking you for that 1 round. Or are you hoping that Orcus might end up "accidentally" hitting himself with his touch of death ability and KO himself? :lol:

I understand that the concept behind dance of death is likely that you enter some sort of "super-evasive routine" stance and counter your opponents' attacks as they attack you. But the issue here seems to be that it was implemented very poorly, as the way dance of death is worded does not mesh well with the turn-based combat system of dnd. The only way it might work the way you want it to is to ready a standard action to use dance of death on an enemy just as he is about to attack you. Either that or revise it to be an immediate action exploit instead.
 

Won't it still be the same thing? The enemy will likely know of the consequences if he tries to attack you while under the effects of dance of death.

That's just it: In one way of looking at things, the enemy isn't under the effects of Dance of Death, the rogue is. This is almost certainly true of, say, Hellish Rebuke, which can trigger if someone other than the target hits you, so it's not unreasonable to assume other abilities might work this way.
 

That's just it: In one way of looking at things, the enemy isn't under the effects of Dance of Death, the rogue is. This is almost certainly true of, say, Hellish Rebuke, which can trigger if someone other than the target hits you, so it's not unreasonable to assume other abilities might work this way.

Hellish Rebuke still reads to me as being essentially the same as Divine Challenge - one of the conditions imposed on him by the power is that he takes damage if anyone hurts you.

-Hyp.
 

Hellish Rebuke still reads to me as being essentially the same as Divine Challenge - one of the conditions imposed on him by the power is that he takes damage if anyone hurts you.

-Hyp.

You're right. That makes sense. He knows about it, and can perhaps communicate it to his allies, but otherwise only he would have the knowledge.
 



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