D&D 5E ritual casting overpowered?

bid

First Post
He didn't add up their perimeters--he added up (an approximation of) their diameters to get a circumference. That's valid, although I'm not certain about his "60' diameter = 75' on curve" approximation since I'm not that good at geometry. You can definitely get 11*60/(2*3.14)=105' radius of warded area though, plus about another 30' for the outward area of the spell itself.
Yeah, no need to be that complex. Just use an hex grid:
- the center hex has a 30' inscribed circle;
- the 6 hexes beside it are 60' away from the center, if you use 6 MM there only the center 30' is safe;
- the 12 next hexes beside it are 120' away from the center, using 12 MM there gives you a 90' radius camp.

Since a circle is better than an hex, it may very well be 105' but 90' vs 105' is just nitpicking. All that matters it it roughly works.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Azzy

ᚳᚣᚾᛖᚹᚢᛚᚠ
Are sharks the only aquatic threats in this universe? Just asking because I thought I remembered seeing the stat blocks for some other creatures that live in the oceans. :p
 

shoak1

Banned
Banned
That's just not right,sry. The geometry is bit more complex than that. Circumference equals pi times diameter. The combined diameters of the 11 circles equals 660 and that approximates the diameter of the perimeter. But curved line connecting 2 points is longer than straight line connecting the same 2 points. So the big circle circumfedren@ce is 800 ish, coresponding to radius of 135...add 30 for radius of outer circle and u get 165.

Take 11 pennies, arrange them in a circle, and measure the ratio between the pennys diameters to the radius of the big circle, and u will see I am right

And hemlock I choose 11 castings of. Mm so I can use 12th for lemunds hut. The combinaTion ensurws no surprise 99% of time
 

seebs

Adventurer
how so? Ritual casting (1 feat) grants the equivalent of water breathing for the whole party for the whole day at the cost of a 10 min cast. By moving 15% slower through an area, the whole party gets continuous telepathic link, and if they move 10% slower they get continuous knowledge of the area for miles around them at all times. At the cost of 10 mins, they get an invisible force shielded shelter every night. By moving 15% slower they get someone to spring traps for them. Move 50% slower and you have continuous magic detection.

I think you're missing a key thing. Ritual casting (which is a class feature for several classes, and does not require a feat) limits you to spells from a single class's list, and requires that you be high enough level to cast those spells. Granting the "whole party" water breathing means you have a fifth-level character and are willing to blow something like an hour to get everyone enchanted. If the spell gets dispelled, you have a problem. Telepathic link requires an even higher level.

How does this change the world of d and d? Any kingdom with even limited resources could completely eliminate banditry for instance.

How, exactly? Keep in mind that the availability of higher-level characters is hardly guaranteed, and I don't see an obvious way that any of the ritual spells completely eliminate banditry.

Water walking trading groups w/tensers disc become as common as ships. Would there be ordinances against massive overuse of magic mouths? Every castle would have its troops telepathically linked - how does that change combat? Animal messengers running to and fro continously become as common as trees. Magically hiding anything becomes virtually useless. And think about common outdoor encounters (the surprise night ambush, the ambush in the mountain pass, the hidden magical door in the tree) and how unlimited ritual spells trivializes them.

Uh. The telepathic link is a one-hour thing, requiring eight creatures within a thirty-foot range. That's not going to link "the troops" of a castle very well.

Mostly, I note that I've not seen these things happen yet, so I am not very worried about them.
 

shoak1

Banned
Banned
I think you're missing a key thing. Ritual casting (which is a class feature for several classes, and does not require a feat) limits you to spells from a single class's list, and requires that you be high enough level to cast those spells. Granting the "whole party" water breathing means you have a fifth-level character and are willing to blow something like an hour to get everyone enchanted. If the spell gets dispelled, you have a problem. Telepathic link requires an even higher level.



How, exactly? Keep in mind that the availability of higher-level characters is hardly guaranteed, and I don't see an obvious way that any of the ritual spells completely eliminate banditry.



Uh. The telepathic link is a one-hour thing, requiring eight creatures within a thirty-foot range. That's not going to link "the troops" of a castle very well.

Mostly, I note that I've not seen these things happen yet, so I am not very worried about them.

Water walk/breath affects 10 peeps
 

crashtestdummy

First Post
Are sharks the only aquatic threats in this universe? Just asking because I thought I remembered seeing the stat blocks for some other creatures that live in the oceans. :p
The biggest danger would be pirates and unscrupulous business competitors. All they need to do is to wait until the water walkers are more than 30 minutes away from shore and then show up with a ship and a few archers. As soon as the ritual casting starts (because Water Walking and Tensor's Floating Disk only last an hour, so it needs to be cast regularly) and they start firing arrows at that point. Once the wizard is dead (or has his ritual disrupted enough to fail and he sinks under the water, they have their own wizard cast waterbreathing on some of their crew who dives in and retrieves the cargo.

A little mathematics...

Tensor's Floating Disk capacity is 500lb maximum. However, you wouldn't want to load it up to that level because if you did and a seagull landed on it, the total weight would be over 500lb immediately ending the spell. To be safe, the maximum effective capacity is probably only 450lb.

Also, as both it and Water Walking needs to be cast every hour, the wizard casting the Water Walking shouldn't be the one casting Tensor's floating disk. That means the maximum capacity would be for a party of 10 wizards: 1 5th level to cast Water Walking and 9 1st level to cast Tensor's Floating Disk. That gives an effective carrying capacity of 9x450lb = 4050lb. That's not really a lot when compared to the carrying capacity of a ship.

However, a party of 10 wizards (9 of which are 1st level) would be really vulnerable to pirates, so some of the water walkers would need to be guards (especially for that 10 minutes every hour when the wizards are all casting rituals), which further reduces the carrying capacity.

Finally, a ship can stay out overnight. The water walkers would need to find dry land or do a forced march, because otherwise they'll drown when they stop for the night.

Just as an extra, the PHB indicates that casting a simple 1st level spell like Cure Wounds, a spellcaster would charge 10-50gp. Let's say 10gp. For one eight hour day, that's eight castings x 10 wizards (the 5th level wizard is obviously a part owner of the venture to only be charging 10gp per cast of a 3rd level spell) which equals 800gp per day. It wouldn't take long before the economics makes ship travel that much cheaper (greater carrying capacity, better range, better safety, and a much lower daily cost after the initial upfront cost of purchasing the ship).

Economically, water walkers with Tensor's Floating Disk would only work in a few specialised areas. Most of the time, a ship is a much better option.




Now, onto the Magic Mouth case. Essentially, this is setting up an array of not-particularly bright sentries, and isn't a bad idea apart form the cost (110gp per night -- I really hope adventuring pays well!).

However, the premise is that this is a world where ritual magic is used, so that means the bandits can have their 1st level cleric/wizard use Detect Magic to locate those Magic Mouths. The arrangement has almost no overlap between the magic mouths so that leaves a couple of options for the bandits.

Option 1: Have a 5th level wizard dispel one of the magic mouths. That opens a hole in the wall (effectively 'killing' one of the sentries) and allowing the bandits to sneak in.

Option 2: Magic mouth is triggered by visual or auditory information. That means it's vulnerable to things like invisibility or stealth...especially in a woods where visibility could be a problem. The spell doesn't say one way or another, but if I were the GM I would rule that a 2nd level spell used normal perception (probably the Wizard's passive perception) to detect anyone trying to sneak past.

If Leomund's Tiny Hut is used, then okay, the party is still safe, but that's a spell that generally only cast once a day, which means that making it a ritual saves one spell slot a day. That's not particularly powerful. Decent and worthwhile, but not a game-changer.

In short, Leomund's Tiny Hut is a great spell, but using a circle of Magic Mouths as magical sentries is not without its flaws. If the technique is known, the countermeasures listed above would also be known, and you can expect bandits to use them.


Finally, for Unseen Servant, it doesn't trigger every trap. Indeed, I would argue that it triggers very few unless the wizard instructs it appropriately.

Pressure plates? It's an invisible, shapeless, mindless force. Does it exert enough force on the ground to trigger a pressure plate? Probably not unless the wizard instructs it accordingly. Also, supposing a 10' wide corridor, the wizard would have to instruct it cover every square foot of that corridor...at 15' per turn. Assuming it had to go up one side and back down the other, that's two turns before the party moves forward 15' (taking another turn because that's the movement rate of the Unseen Servant), so that means it takes 3 turns to move 15'...

Trip wires? Probably triggered, so that's an easy one.

Visually trigger traps (eg. the goblin with his hand on a lever to trigger a pit trap as soon as he sees someone)? Definitely not triggered by an Unseen Servant.

Magical traps (such as Magic Mouths to yell a warning)? Again, not necessarily triggered by an Unseen Servant.



And, finally, Detect Magic. Please note that Nystul's Magic Aura is a 2nd level spell and if you cast it the same way for 30 days in a row, it lasts until dispelled. You want that magical trap hidden from Detect Magic? Not a problem! 30 days of casting a 2nd level spell and the party that relies on Detect Magic just ran into whatever trap you wanted

Rituals are decent. They're not overpowered.
 
Last edited:


crashtestdummy

First Post
One thing is characters do have some firm limits on how many spells they have prepared.

True, which is why Wizards make the best ritual casters (leaving aside the Ritual Caster feat) because their rules for ritual casting does not require them to have the spells prepared -- they only need to be in their spellbook. The other classes all require the caster to have the spell prepared, which cuts into what else they can do.
 

seebs

Adventurer
Water walk/breath affects 10 peeps

True. But telepathic link still requires a 9th level caster and only affects up to 8 people.

I don't think you're considering the rarity of high-level characters, with or without the ritual caster feat (which is an optional rule to begin with).
 

bgbarcus

Explorer
Leomund's Tiny Hut is a very good spell but not perfect protection. It is visible and an enemy with the ability to track can determine the party is hiding under the dome. If the hunters are serious about catching the people hiding in the hut they just need to wait, preferably with an arsenal of area of effect attack spells waiting for the hut to disappear. Depending on the terrain, the hunters can even find or build cover to avoid missile attacks from inside the hut. If the hunters include a wizard or someone else familiar with the spell, they will certainly be able to devise tactics to take advantage of its limited duration and the conveniently clustered quarry hiding inside.

For a small party, Meld Into Stone is a more effective way to take a long rest in safety. It is also a ritual and the party can be spread around an area (assuming the terrain is stone).

My group includes one guy who is always looking for an angle with his spells and he is a fan of rituals. After two years of playing 5e we have still not seen any sign of rituals being overpowered.
 

Remove ads

Top