Rituals are in it would seem

[Stalker0]

In addition "costs" need to be really looked at, since it's one of the most frustrating issues with the current ritual system. Expensive at low levels and nearly Trivial at high levels is not the way to go.

This one is the hardest part to me. The only way I could see to do it would be with some kind of "plot components", like the skin of a troll or the old eye of newt.

Gold doesn't scale, neither does XP really (and people really hate spending XP). Even something like healing surges doesn't work when you are in downtime and don't need the vitality.

Either the penalty would have to have a long duration (lose a healing surge, lose it for a month), or has to be something the DM can control without affecting other components of the game. So I think the plot component is the best one.

 

[jodyjohnson]

Rituals is a piece of gaming tech that needs individual campaign customization.

Soon as it's all laid out in 'Rules' players act like it's set in stone. And then the exact same ritual can be either too good or useless depending on the campaign.

No matter what happens with 5e, all my games will have Rituals - no matter the edition - but that doesn't mean the players can just pick from the book. Rituals for us are a means of flavoring a particular campaign to taste.

No rogue in the party, then add quick casting Knock. Rogue in the party, maybe long casting knock but probably no point.

Raise Dead? Maybe it's ultra-rare but then characters almost never die. Maybe they drop like flies and Raise Dead is quick and easy to access.

Summon Orcus? Doesn't exist. Except when the DM needs it to summon Orcus.

 

[avin]

It's pretty simple, as some guys said, rituals should be used for some more powerful spells, like Raise Dead, open portals, bless the crop, etc.

It open doors to some good roleplaying stuff.

 

[steeldragons]

1) This is good to hear. As with everyone else, the implementation of them [sounds like] was not good. But the flavor and possibilities were full of win.

2) Various spells might, should I dare say, still be spells. The "it's a utility=a ritual" needsto go away.

3)Certain spells could still be spells, but perhaps have ritual-version options. This would, again going with the "options to [attempt to] make everyone happy", allow those who want X available for "combat-casting" have their cake, and those who want a major site/encounter time consuming plot device can have their cake too...now whether anyone getsto eat it? We'll have to see.

I'm thinking (completely off the top of my head here) something like this:

<Note: These are all completely hypothetical with no knowledge of what actual game mechanics/crunch will look like and the fluff/flavour completely made up, by me, just now. So please do not clutter up the thread with "But this spell should be X" or "that spell does Y/round" or whatever. Not the point...just an idea. Please and thank you.>

Spell/Ritual/Ceremony.

Knock: Spell opens any mundanely locked door or portal (windows, gates, sewer grates, locked chests, anything that is built to/can be opened) and has a chance to open magically sealed portals (caster level +/- whatever vs. arcane lock caster level, etc.)
--Castable as Ritual: requires 1-3 casters. Casing time 1 hour. A Knock Ritual, in addition to functioning as the spell, is able to open magical seals up to the combined caster levels involved in the ritual. It is also possible to perform the ritual to open a momentary portal to another plane (creates a Gate), lasting no more than 1 hour per caster (a ritual with 3 casters will remain open for 3 hours) involved and bringing forth only creatures whose HD do not exceed the number of casters' levels.
---Castable as a Ceremony [Greater Ritual]: the Ceremony requires a minimum of 5 casters (and may have/demand up to whatever number you want for story purposes). Casting time is 5 hours. The Knock Ceremony opens a Gate, as the ritual, which is permanent. Also, there is no limit to the HD of creature(s) that may cross the barrier.

Animate Dead: Spell -castable anywhere (there are corpses available). Casting time X. Infuses up to d4 HD/caster level of available corpses with arcane energy, animating them as mindless undead (zombies and/or skeletons) under the caster's complete verbal control. The animation lasts X rounds/caster level.
--Ritual: Requires 1-3 casters. Casting time 1 hour. Animates 2 HD of corpses to a total not exceeding the total number of caster levels performing the ritual. The animation lasts 1 day per caster level involved.
--Cerermony: Requires minimum of 5 casters. Casting time 5 hours. Animates 4 HD of mindless undead per caster level involved. The animation is permanent and the creatures are under the verbal or mental control of any of the "primary" caster involved.

So the spell might be used to make yourself a couple of skeleton "summoned monsters" for a combat. The ritual could be used to raise a good section of a cemetery and terrorize the local town. The ceremony could raise an entire ancient battlefield that you didn't even know had dead beneath the soil.

Raise Dead: Ritual. I don't think anyone's going to argue that. Though perhaps a "Ceremony" version, taking longer and more casters to raise more than one person at a time?

Comprehend Languages: Spell...unless people want to add a "Ritual" type to allow more than just the caster understand the language?

Dimension Door: spell, as normal. Ritual: the portal remains open to specified place for 1 hour/caster levels. Usable as many times as caster levels involved. Ceremony: portal is permanent (though still the entrance and "exit" points are immutable). No limit to number of times it can be used.

Teleport: similarly a spell or a ritual (teleport a bunch more people than you could do yourself) or a ceremony (create a permanent teleportal platform or something)...

You're seeing the gist here, I suspect.

But yeah, have to go through on a (utility) spell-by-spell basis and decide what each does.

As everyone has said: rituals need to require time and expensive/rare components (i.e. lotsa GP). Same with ceremonies and the added expense of "burning off" XP (potentially quite a bit) to generate the greater effects (also a reason the more casters you can involve, the better, as everyone needs to lose less XP if you're dividing it among more people)

Then, just wait til they come around to the idea of allowing NON-utility spells with Rituals and Ceremonies...

(Flame Strike ceremony...permanent pillars of flame from above, movable at the mental commands of the primary caster...Permanent Flame Strike tornadoes scouring the countryside, anyone? bwahahaha.)

--SD

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I'm in support of rituals.

There's many spells out there that a sorcerer or bard, or any spell slot using caster would never pick because they're too situational and don't have much combat use, but I would want to use because they're really neat and flavourful.

These would be spells such as Phantom Steed, Prying Eyes and Modify Memory.

Especially in the case of Phantom Steed where the Bard never learned that spell, because it was always better to wait for the cleric to prepare teleport or wind walk instead. Even though Wind Walk is something I certainly see as being ritual material.

 

[Steely_Dan]

I hope they are not accessible to any class simply by taking a feat.

 

[CM]

Everybody concerned about rituals might want to check out the Heroic Tier Rituals article in Dragon magazine #405 (November 2011) writtey by Robert Schwalb. It's clear that lessons were learned--the majority of these rituals only take 1 minute to cast. I'll quote one as an example:

Tongues
Level: 5
Category: Exploration
Time: 1 minute
Duration: 10 minutes
Component Cost: 25 gp and 1 healing surge
Market Price: 200 gp
Key Skill: Arcana or Religion (no check)
You or one ally present during the ritual’s performance gains the ability to speak and understand all languages. Creatures that can hear the target
understand what he or she says as if he or she were speaking their native language. If the target can hear another creature that is speaking a language, he or she understands what that creature says as if it were speaking the target’s native language.

 

[grimslade]

I would figure there would be Arcane War Colleges to develop combat rituals. A transmute earth to mud spell on a mass scale replaces a whole slew of sappers. See the Belgariad I think for diverting springs to weaken a fortification.

A ritual or ceremony, excellent call on the Greter Ritual being a ceremony Steel Dragon!, for flame strike would produce a giant pillar of fire to scourge several blocks of a city or whole battalions. Great fodder for we need to sneak into the enemy camp and disrupt the Flame Nuke ceremony before the Sea Ward is toast.

 

[Steely_Dan]

Everybody concerned about rituals might want to check out the Heroic Tier Rituals article in Dragon magazine #405 (November 2011) writtey by Robert Schwalb. It's clear that lessons were learned--the majority of these rituals only take 1 minute to cast. I'll quote one as an example:

Tongues
Level: 5
Category: Exploration
Time: 1 minute
Duration: 10 minutes
Component Cost: 25 gp and 1 healing surge
Market Price: 200 gp
Key Skill: Arcana or Religion (no check)
You or one ally present during the ritual’s performance gains the ability to speak and understand all languages. Creatures that can hear the target
understand what he or she says as if he or she were speaking their native language. If the target can hear another creature that is speaking a language, he or she understands what that creature says as if it were speaking the target’s native language.

So magically understanding all languages costs you health (healing surges), that is a complete anathema to me.

 

[GreyICE]

One of the ideas I have played around with raise dead is that to bring back the dead requires volunteered life essence so you want a party member back are you all willing to give up a level to fuel it.

Love the flavor, but mechanically that's an enormous dud. Enormous.

"Bill died in the campaign. Do we want to resurrect him?"
"Yeah! I love him! His rogue has come up with the most insanely good ideas! I don't care if it costs us a level, lets do it."

DM: "Okay, uh... brb redesigning encounters."

Problem with too much school of design is that they make things that work great on paper without considering how they work in practice. Not a knock on you, it was pretty much the entire 3E design philosophy.

So magically understanding all languages costs you health (healing surges), that is a complete anathema to me.

*sigh*

HP are abstract. Always have been, always will be. It costs the caster stamina. The magic actually leaves the wizard feeling a little drained and exhausted afterwards.

A fighter might similarly be exhausted after he parried a strong blow with his shield.



Anyway, rituals = in is a good thing, but I hope they don't "ride on the back of the bus" this edition. They were a great concept that just never got utilized properly until late in 4E's life.