Rituals are in it would seem

[chaochou]

Guh! No. I'm the opposite. Rituals, by their very nature, should be open to anyone REGARDLESS of having a feat or not.

Without going into technical details about whether it's a feat or a background or theme or whatever, I agree. I think rituals offer a fantastic, evocative way of opening up mystical or magical effects to non casters, while providing effective constraints to differentiate from the trained magic users and clergy.

It doesn't need to be glowing runes on the floor and wierd ingredients - I think of Rambo repetitively, compulsively sharpening his knife as a kind of ritual. Theoden strapping on his armour at Helm's Deep as a ritual.

In the Iliad there's a motif: 'War - I know it well, and the butchery of men. Well I know, shift the left, shift to the right, my tough tanned shield.' It's repeated over and over throughout, it's how warriors announce their readiness or competence. I find that highly ritualistic as well, not just a drill, but a mental preparation for killing or being killed.

So I don't think its unreasonable in a game of fantasy, in fact I think it's evocative and interesting, to encourage the use of rituals across all the classes.

 

[GreyICE]

Actually the distinction 4E made was that things that effect numeric bonuses or otherwise have a direct mechanical effect are powers, anything that has an indirect mechanical effect is a ritual.

So "Comprehend Language" is a ritual because the effect is not something that directly translates to '+4 to bluff.' So is "Make Whole" and "Tenser's Floating Disk."

 

[Elf Witch]

I don't have a problem with non casters using rituals but I think it should be harder for them to do it. A wizard can learn to swing a sword but under the rules he will never get as good as a fighter. And I am fine with that but it should work the other way to.

 

[Kzach]

I completely disagree with this from the point of view that something that takes a wizard many years of focused training, a priest years and years of ecclesiastic commitment, or a shaman years and years of primal devotion can be reproduced by a layman in the form of a ritual with no more devotion than that required to spend a single feat on. That completely takes away from what it really means to be a wizard, priest or shaman in my opinion. {Niche protection needs to go both ways}.

I make the distinction that what you're talking about are spells and what I'm talking about are rituals. I think the two should be separate entities that are NOT tied together by similar mechanics or restrictions.

However, you raise a very good point in regards to "folk magic", or stuff that is as much weaved in superstition and folklore as anything else. Such cantrip level "rituals" should be included as a form of magic accessible to those who take an interest but without the demands of full on arcane or ecclesiastical study or primal devotion.

And this can be done in a ritual system simply by having rituals scale in power dependent on the power of the individual/s casting the ritual and the components they're using.

Take for instance a regular peasant who's never done anything but farm. He's not even amounted enough experience in anything to go beyond the heroic tier and remains a minion-level creature. He can perform the most basic levels of rituals IF he finds the components necessary to cast it and finds the ritual instructions. And even then, he's better off doing it with a few mates from the pub. BUT, they CAN do it.

Now a heroic-level PC, OTOH, can do it without the components and by himself just as effectively as the peasant can with the components and a few buddies. There's your difference. Not only that, but he can probably do a more powerful version of it.

This also leaves room for power components. Let's say the farmer finds an ancient dragonskull in his field and digs it up and tells his buddy who knows of another guy in the town a few miles from them that once found a ritual book of dark power. The guy misses his dead wife and so gets the bright idea to use the dragonskull to empower a ritual to bring her back... only the fools end up casting a create undead spell on the towns graveyard!

A system that allowed scaleable ritual power from the yokels to the BBEG versions, would be an awesome addition to D&D IMO.

 

[Kinak]

Take for instance a regular peasant who's never done anything but farm. He's not even amounted enough experience in anything to go beyond the heroic tier and remains a minion-level creature. He can perform the most basic levels of rituals IF he finds the components necessary to cast it and finds the ritual instructions. And even then, he's better off doing it with a few mates from the pub. BUT, they CAN do it.

I agree wholeheartedly with everyone being able to participate, but I just wanted to call this out for special attention.

If anything, peasants perform rituals constantly. Blessing their crops, driving away the fae, supplications to the gods, and so forth.

Now, there's still the question of whether they work, but I'd answer with an emphatic "usually." If a certain chant and covering your face with the blood of a calf lets the peasants pass safely through the Forest of Almost-Certain-Death, doesn't that add something to your game? Reward the PCs for paying attention or let them fight the forest's denizens. It only makes your game better.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[Herremann the Wise]

I make the distinction that what you're talking about are spells and what I'm talking about are rituals. I think the two should be separate entities that are NOT tied together by similar mechanics or restrictions.

Others seem to want to see magical effects that can be cast as a spell (so as to be able to be cast in combat) but also do double duty in being performed as a ritual. Same effect but different process to get it. On that basis, I would not want to see a "yokel" getting anywhere near the same sort of effect as a dedicated wizard. I would much prefer to separate Folk Magic as a cantrip level form of ritual as indicated by chaochou a few posts up and Kinak above.

And this can be done in a ritual system simply by having rituals scale in power dependent on the power of the individual/s casting the ritual and the components they're using.

Take for instance a regular peasant who's never done anything but farm. He's not even amounted enough experience in anything to go beyond the heroic tier and remains a minion-level creature. He can perform the most basic levels of rituals IF he finds the components necessary to cast it and finds the ritual instructions. And even then, he's better off doing it with a few mates from the pub. BUT, they CAN do it.

This just seems wrong that you can have a peasant who with his illiterate and drunk mates that know little more than how to till the land and fool around with each other's missus, are going to have the wherewithal to successfully perform an arcane ritual. I prefer magic to be special rather than a mundane tool that anyone can just pick up. I gather you are firmly on the other side of the magic is special spectrum and that's cool, differences of opinion and all that.

Now a heroic-level PC, OTOH, can do it without the components and by himself just as effectively as the peasant can with the components and a few buddies. There's your difference. Not only that, but he can probably do a more powerful version of it.

Is this any PC though? Or just the ones dedicated to a life of arcane, divine or primal tradition and training? If the former, again, I think you are badly treading on the toes of the wizard, priest and shaman.

This also leaves room for power components. Let's say the farmer finds an ancient dragonskull in his field and digs it up and tells his buddy who knows of another guy in the town a few miles from them that once found a ritual book of dark power. The guy misses his dead wife and so gets the bright idea to use the dragonskull to empower a ritual to bring her back... only the fools end up casting a create undead spell on the towns graveyard!

This sounds pretty cool but there are other ways of accomplishing this sort of storyline that make more sense without cheapening high-powered rituals to the point where talentless yokels can perform them.

A system that allowed scaleable ritual power from the yokels to the BBEG versions, would be an awesome addition to D&D IMO.

Again, I'd separate the yokel cantrip level folk magic well away from the "big stuff". But that's just me; agree to disagree and all that.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Kzach]

If anything, peasants perform rituals constantly. Blessing their crops, driving away the fae, supplications to the gods, and so forth.

Yeah, minor things that form the superstitions and mysticism of each village or area that may not shatter the earth but help them get by in their every day lives. In just about every ancient culture there used to be gazillions of gods. A god for just about everything. Gods of the hearth, gods of doorways, gods of taking a piss. And there would be supplications to them all. Then there were all they superstitions of common folk like breaking a mirror being bad luck or walking under a ladder, etc. and wards to prevent or 'cure' them such as salt thrown over the shoulder, etc. And on top of all of that are the little mystical elements of folklore like changelings and goblins (not the D&D type of goblin) and the various wards to protect against them or the rituals to satiate them.

These could all be part of a ritual system that had scalable power levels.

Now, there's still the question of whether they work, but I'd answer with an emphatic "usually." If a certain chant and covering your face with the blood of a calf lets the peasants pass safely through the Forest of Almost-Certain-Death, doesn't that add something to your game? Reward the PCs for paying attention or let them fight the forest's denizens. It only makes your game better.

This made me realise that most adventures seem to assume that towns and villages live in a bit of a vacuum that doesn't incorporate their surroundings. If goblins live in the woods, then it's usually 'us vs. them' and they get heroes in to deal with them. But a more realistic approach would be that people would create a workable relationship with their surroundings. They would adapt in some way purely for survival. The goblins, instead of being adversaries, might be given small bundles of furs and tools and foodstuffs every fullmoon, left on an ancient altar near the forest's edge and that arrangement has kept the two people's in relative harmony for decades.

 

[GreyICE]

I don't have a problem with non casters using rituals but I think it should be harder for them to do it. A wizard can learn to swing a sword but under the rules he will never get as good as a fighter. And I am fine with that but it should work the other way to.

Hence most rituals requiring an arcana check.

I think if rituals require an intelligence/wisdom check then this would accomplish what you're looking for, in a permissive way. Very few non-int primary characters will do as well as non-int primary characters in casting rituals, in much the same way wizards will never be as good as fighters with swords (lousy strength scores).

More basic rituals wouldn't require one, obv.

 

[Kzach]

This sounds pretty cool but there are other ways of accomplishing this sort of storyline that make more sense without cheapening high-powered rituals to the point where talentless yokels can perform them.

I'm not sure if you're seeing the point or not. Yokels don't have access to 'high-powered' rituals. There's no such thing in the system I'm advocating. Rituals would scale in power based on the knowledge and skill of the caster, the amount of casters, and the components being used. A yokel would most likely only ever be able to conduct the very lowest level of power of a ritual, unless they chanced upon a 'power component' like an ancient dragon's skull.

PC's, on the other hand, would have the knowledge and training (say through Arcana training and/or a feat) to use the same ritual as the yokel, but make it far more powerful and/or use far less components, and if they managed to get a power component like the blood of a virginal succubus, then they could do much more with it than the yokel ever could.

Same ritual, different power levels.

This also opens up rituals to cults. The more people involved in the ritual, the more powerful the ritual can be. So you could get some 'high priest' who actually only knows the very basics of a ritual but who manages to convince a hundred people to follow him and worship the 'god of deep spaces', and thus they end up summoning a minion of Cthulhu.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

I'm glad to hear rituals are in. They're one of the couple of things I like about 4E.

I kind of like the idea that utility spells become rituals too. This relates to other discussions about role protection. Using fly to obviate a thief's climbing ability becomes a lot less attractive when there's a time or currency cost to the spell.

There are other effective methods of role protection, of course, but this seems like it would at least be one effective means.