TSR Rob Kuntz Recounts The Origins Of D&D

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In this interesting article from Kotaku, Rob Kuntz relates a history of early TSR that differs somewhat from the narrative we usually hear. It delves into the relationship between Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson (D&D's co-creators) and the actual development of the game, which dates back to Arneson in 1971.

Dungeons & Deceptions: The First D&D Players Push Back On The Legend Of Gary Gygax

Everybody calls Rob Kuntz last, he says. Those who want to know about the history of Dungeons & Dragons start with co-creator Gary Gygax’s kids, one of Gygax’s biographers, or D&D publisher Wizards of the Coast. As they’re wrapping things up, they might get around to dialing up Kuntz, a...

kotaku.com

 

[Rob Kuntz]

Luke Gygax is out there playing in live streaming games: OG folks like yourself might do well to give that a shot for posterity.

"Posterity" in this instance would mean the promulgation and extension of the base concept. Otherwise I have no need or want to push well known axioms branded with my own "take" (specificity of my own design nature). I am more interested in propelling people to think in dimension and take control of their own design thinking just as Arneson, Gary and myself encouraged from the onset of this fantastical delve into conceptual realms (broader swaths of general principals, what to look for, etc.). It's less How To than it is How Come or Why For?

 

[Parmandur]

"Posterity" in this instance would mean the promulgation and extension of the base concept. Otherwise I have no need or want to push well known axioms branded with my own "take" (specificity of my own design nature). I am more interested in propelling people to think in dimension and take control of their own design thinking just as Arneson, Gary and myself encouraged from the onset of this fantastical delve into conceptual realms (broader swaths of general principals, what to look for, etc.). It's less How To than it is How Come or Why For?

Yes, I'm saying it would be very good to have solid play examples from that style.

 

[Morrus]

I am super happy to confirm that @Rob Kuntz will be joining Jim Ward, Ed Greenwood, and Jonathan Tweet as an epic level columnist here at EN World! Our news page keeps levelling up!

 

[Rob Kuntz]

No offense taken.

What I mean is there is a quality to game play that can get lost when folks try and write things down. Live, recorded play is what I’m after, really. I’d love it if you recorded some, or would.

Also would you publish Greyhawk material if WotC were to open it up in DMsGuild?

Ah. What you allude to is spot on. It is the difference between kids playing then being asked to transfer that to paper for the parents who watched them do so so that "understanding" would/could be reached by the latter. The kids would merely shake their heads, smile, take their parent's hands and lead them out to play in answer. "Lost in translation", in my view, is close but not quite right in describing this, in fact. It is actually the editing that takes place in all forms of comms where the singular receiving and sending apparatus are unequal. I have written a very extensive chapter on this in my unfinished (150,000 words written) book "New Ethos in Game Design."

I would consider recording sessions upon my eventual return to the States from France in the next 6-8 months. People should keep prodding me about it in the meantime just to remind me as my mind is always overloaded with too many things happening at too many levels. So it's not BEG, it's BASH, LOL!

As for Greyhawk. I cannot say with surety for now. There are two, possibly three, avenues percolating out of sight as we communicate. One by my company, one up in the air (possibly heading for the gutter), and possibly one on the horizon (over 2 years distant). The short answer is that I would consider endorsing and contributing, or not, to such an endeavor based upon its initial design intent. If just to use the Brand as a lure, probably not. If aimed at progressing it along avenues never before traveled, you'd have my attention.

 

[Rob Kuntz]

Yes, I'm saying it would be very good to have solid play examples from that style.

Answered below. I mean, above...

 

[Rob Kuntz]

I am super happy to confirm that @Rob Kuntz will be joining Jim Ward, Ed Greenwood, and Jonathan Tweet as an epic level columnist here at EN World! Our news page keeps levelling up!

Great to be aboard a well maintained ship whose destination has always remained constant. Piper me aboard, Mate!

 

[Lanefan]

I think there was and is so much from the game that can only be transmitted via playing or by example. I lament the things and styles that were lost because that kind of recording of game play just wasn’t done at the time. From Arneson and Gygax.

Not just recording of actual gameplay, but recording of thought processes and developments/changes as they occurred. None of these guys, realistically, had any idea that what they were doing was going to be anywhere near this relevant 45 years later, and so they had no reason to either make detailed records or keep them for any length of time afterwards.

And dredging this stuff up after the fact isn't easy. Right now, for example, my original (and still) DM is trying to put together a timeline of all the changes and adaptions he (and some of the rest of us) have made to 1e starting in the very early 1980s. He had no reason to record any of this at the time and no reason to think it would ever become of any interest years down the road. Thus the timeline is being built on evidence from old character sheets, memory, scattered DM notes, and what's left of some old books of house rules.

And that's mostly just one person. Trying to do much the same process to cover the early-70's era when this was all just getting started, with different people in different cities in some cases doing different things at the same time, must be a nightmare!

 

[Rob Kuntz]

Would you say that the "supplement treadmill" (which, I would tentatively propose, includes published adventures) that seems to be ubiquitous today is an example of this? Presuming I'm recalling what you wrote in Dave Arneson's True Genius correctly, that seems like an outgrowth of closed systems in general, whereby they're essentially limited in what they allow the users to do save only for when new exception-based expansions are released.

If that's the case, is there any special consideration that should be given to supplements I-IV for OD&D, since that was an open/closed system? I've seen it noted how if you used all of those supplements (particularly, I believe, supplements I and III), OD&D became much more like AD&D 1E; if we hold that to be true, how would you characterize the use of those supplements with OD&D?

Almost missed this! People were closing their systems down as they preferred or opening them up as they preferred anyway. It's just when you take a standard route and then attach a closed form (mission adventure) to it that that changes the whole ball game. TSR went from "You Choose" to "We Choose", that being open and having variants was cool and a given to then saying it was a no-no if you were not playing "The One True Way". Information and structure were variable under open form; they were now the law with closed form. Two different philosophies because they are two different systems. Information is information otherwise, How you apply it OR how you are instructed to apply it determines the limitations, or not, of the system and thus affects design, design thought and play and play thought, as they are the sum in each case of their respective applied systemizations.

 

[Warpiglet]

This has been a fun thread and article.

However I need to check my understanding. Any feedback/clarification from anyone appreciated.

It sounds like Gygax had combat rules including for fantasy creatures and effects before he actually had a true rpg on his hands (before meeting up with Arneson) is this correct/partially correct?

For whatever reason, the final product had more of Gygax's 'style' and choice of mechanics even if due to his forceful advocacy. Is this correct?

Gygax eventually claimed full credit---after he had steered things in his direction (i.e. AD&D). Correct?

I guess I am left with thinking people should acknowledge Arneson more...but not necessarily by diminishing what Gygax did.

 

[Rob Kuntz]

This has been a fun thread and article.

However I need to check my understanding. Any feedback/clarification from anyone appreciated.

It sounds like Gygax had combat rules including for fantasy creatures and effects before he actually had a true rpg on his hands (before meeting up with Arneson) is this correct/partially correct?

For whatever reason, the final product had more of Gygax's 'style' and choice of mechanics even if due to his forceful advocacy. Is this correct?

Gygax eventually claimed full credit---after he had steered things in his direction (i.e. AD&D). Correct?

I guess I am left with thinking people should acknowledge Arneson more...but not necessarily by diminishing what Gygax did.

Actually he had a combat system for a miniatures game, Chainmail. We never used that system in the play-tests, we started and always used the "alternative" combat system with the d20 spread.

Th reason it was Gygax's style is because he wrote the MS. He stated to me in 1972 (late) that Arneson's rules from his notes had to be rewritten. Some of them were, some of them were inverted and changed. Dave's systems architecture was not changed, only the mechanics which appointed it were as Gary's preferences.

Gary and TSR "attempted" to claim full credit. The courts thought otherwise and a settlement occurred.

People should acknowledge Arneson, Yes. People should acknowledge Gygax, Yes. No one has ever not acknowledged Gary's part, but MANY have disallowed Arneson's part to present (and still) AND by downgrading his part in that history, in fact. What is good for the goose in this case has not been done for the gander. But all of that is changing. Will Arneson's estate get the public and professional apology for all of this whacking his legacy has taken? One has to wonder...