TSR Rob Kuntz Recounts The Origins Of D&D

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In this interesting article from Kotaku, Rob Kuntz relates a history of early TSR that differs somewhat from the narrative we usually hear. It delves into the relationship between Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson (D&D's co-creators) and the actual development of the game, which dates back to Arneson in 1971.

Dungeons & Deceptions: The First D&D Players Push Back On The Legend Of Gary Gygax - Kotaku

Everybody calls Rob Kuntz last, he says. Those who want to know about the history of Dungeons & Dragons start with co-creator Gary Gygax’s kids, one of

kotaku.com

 

[Rob Kuntz]

This is interesting because it potentially refutes the idea that without Gary Gygax's involvement, D&D would never have come into being as not just a commercial product, let alone become as wildly successful as it did. I say "potentially" because, as a counterfactual, it's impossible to know for sure. Nevertheless, Rob, I want to ask if you can expound on what you've said here.

Specifically:

1) Had Arneson refined his game to the point where it was written down as a whole product (i.e. contained all the rules necessary for play), and said written product would be understandable to someone who had never participated in a role-playing session before?
2) If so, why did Gygax feel the need to rewrite so much of it (was it only due to personal jealousy, as you've noted previously)?
3) With both Don Lowry and Avalon Hill having elected to pass on his game, who was Arneson planning on demoing it for if Gygax hadn't jumped on it?
4) Do you think that Arneson's game, lacking any significant rewriting or editing from someone else, would have reached the same level of popularity and commercial success that Dungeons & Dragons did?

Well it is not meant to refute anything but the fact that he wasn't attempting to publish both it and DUNGEON.

1) He had refined the game so it was playable by what was in his head and on paper and by the players knowledge of this. He had refined it enough to play it and to inform Gary, when asked, how it worked, both in play and by phone. Gary in fact had to go to Minnesota to play again as he did not fully grasp the organization due to Arneson's notes and that he retained some of that in in head. So, Gary finally gasped what Arneson was doing through play and inquiry, just as Dave's players had done. If he hadn't, he could never have written D&D.

2) I suppose that he felt that the mechanics were not aligned to his own preferences. However, some of Arneson's systems were retained, though changed (the source for this is from SoB and another independent researcher reconstructing Armeson's total system from documents).

3) Well one might ask that of anything, as TSR had to (essentially) self publish it; and Gary had been in a better position with Lowry as his Rules Editor and AH as Don Greenwood was acquainted with Gary and respected him. So it was not about if not Gary why Dave? It was about the concept itself. No one could wrap their head around it even though Arneson and his group loved it and so did we, So Dave, like Gary, would have, I suppose and just like Gary, essentially and finally self-published it.

4) Why take away significant rewriting and its future from Dave that is accorded to Gary under such a hypothetical? That he had gotten to that stage after 1.5 years is a plus towards its eventual refinement for print, not a minus.

 

[darjr]

I’m intrigued by the idea that there is a rule set that is closer to Arneson original rules out there. Is it available?

 

[Rob Kuntz]

I’m intrigued by the idea that there is a rule set that is closer to Arneson original rules out there. Is it available?

Won't talk about it due to NDA. You'll know if/when it is. Otherwise, for now, look up Adventures in Fantasy (used) Arneson and Snider and First Fantasy Campaign (used).

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[darjr]

Yup Love @havard blog!

 

[havard]

In addition, there is another blog-

Havards Blackmoor Blog

This is a blog dedicated to Dave Arneson's Blackmoor. The World of Mystara will also most likely appear here given the fondness of the author towards that fantastic setting. This is the official blog of the Blackmoor Archives and The Comeback Inn Forum at WWW.BLACKMOOR.MYSTARA.NET

blackmoormystara.blogspot.com

Which often delves into the old rules.

Thanks for the plug lowkey13!

I write about rules and also everything Blackmoor, Dave Arneson, D&D and a bit of Mystara

-Havard

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[GreyLord]

Hey Rob,

Off the normal path, but I know you were around back then and were familiar with the products being put out. Here's a question that's been burning me for years.

One of the items I originally was given was a Holmes Basic Set. In it, I distinctly remember that Elves could be fighters or Magic-users and had to choose which to be and gain Experience each adventure.

I have since lost that set. However, people say that such a thing never existed, or if it did, it was prior to official version being published. In copies I have bought since I find that Elves seem to advance in both fighter and magic-user rather than how I remembered it.

Do you recall the earliest sets of Holmes and if any of those had the rules as I remember them in relation to elves?

 

[Warpiglet]

This was posted online from the supposed foreword of the Holmes set. It was an early hit entering those search terms....

https://www.americanroads.us/DandD/DnD_Basic_Rules_Holmes.pdf


If quoting here is not allowed I will happily edit it out.

"ONCE UPON A TIME, long, long ago there was a lit- tle group known as the Castle and Crusade Society. Their fantasy rules were published, and to this writer's knowledge, brought about much of the current interest in fantasy wargaming. For a time the group grew and prospered, and Dave Arneson decided to begin a medieval fantasy campaign game for his active Twin Cities club. From the map of the "land" of the "Great Kingdom" and environs — the territory of C & C Society — Dave located a nice bog wherein to nest the weird enclave of "Blackmoor," a spot between the "Giant Kingdom" and the fearsome "Egg of Coot." From the CHAINMAIL fantasy rules he drew ideas for a far more complex and exciting game, and thus began a cam- paign which still thrives as of this writing! In due course the news reached my ears, and the result is what you have in your hands at this moment."

E. Gary Gygax 1973

 

[Warpiglet]

In the event my former post is nixed...read the foreword to the Holmes basic set by Gygax.

Then discuss implications...

I gotta say it changed my opinion a bit...