D&D 5E Rogue / Echo Knight

[CleverNickName]

As I said, RAW is for idiots.

The phrase "RAW is for idiots" sounds like the sort of thing that only problematic players and DMs would say. You know, the folks who would rather hold the table hostage with an argument than ever back down from their Cool Idea.

 

[jaelis]

So I'm going to say, it seems like BS to be hidden and because of that get advantage when attacking via your plainly visible echo. It seems legal per the rules, but I doubt I'd allow it.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The phrase "RAW is for idiots" sounds like the sort of thing that only problematic players and DMs would say. You know, the folks who would rather hold the table hostage with an argument than ever back down from their Cool Idea.

* Ruin thinks of himself aged about 17 and smiles nervously. A single bead of sweat appears on his left temple *

But the important thing is I got over it, and I now know that's a jolly silly thing to say, at least in 5E. Still my current DM does bring up the "ambulance incident" from Conspiracy X, from time to time.

 

[CleverNickName]

* Ruin thinks of himself aged about 17 and smiles nervously. A single bead of sweat appears on his left temple *

But the important thing is I got over it, and I now know that's a jolly silly thing to say, at least in 5E.

No idea is going to be cool enough to make me forget the two hours you just spent "winning" your argument with the DM, Chuck. Read the room.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

No idea is going to be cool enough to make me forget the two hours you just spent "winning" your argument with the DM, Chuck. Read the room.

My only mitigating factor, your honour, before I'm sentenced to 1000 years in the Phantom Zone, is that in the only actual hour+ stupid argument I got involved in, it was away from the table. Still, the GM and two of the other players were there...

(All the other ones were like 1-10 minutes - somewhere in my early 20s I realized this was not helping anyone, I think when I dealt with it from the other side of the table for the umpteenth time.)

 

[CleverNickName]

Yeah, we don't have the strength to argue for hours anymore. Nowadays, I just say "Look, I hear what you're saying. We can discuss it later over e-mail but this is how I am going to rule it right now. So make your death saving throw already; Daryl has been waiting 10 minutes for his turn."

 

[Mistwell]

In practical terms you are asking for a semi-solid, grayscale, Tupac Shakur hologram, that used to be at the Coachella Festival, be ruled as Hidden, despite the fact the hologram is standing right in front of it’s target, stabbing with a rapier.

No. I am asking that the rogue be hidden. Not the Echo. The Echo is NOT MAKING AN ATTACK. It's the Rogue making the attack. He is just magically able to change the location his attack comes from, in the blink of an eye.

The Echo CANNOT BE HIDDEN. It cannot make a hide check. Even if it is behind 100% cover, it's still not "hidden" because it's NOT AN ENTITY and not an object someone else can hide.

Now if both the Echo and the Halfling Echo Knight were Hidden, (say the Echo was in an area of the Darkness spell, and the halfling was Hidden, outside the Darkness effect), my ruling would be the attack gets Advantage.

The Echo cannot hide even in a darkness spell. The Echo cannot make a hide check. The Echo cannot make any checks. It's not an entity of any kind. It has no ability scores.

Back to the original post, the Assassin subclass could work well with Echo Knight.
Careful use of the Echo means one can use the Echo and Unleash Incarnation to get attacks on Surprised creatures, and creatures that have not gone yet in combat, (and thus get Advantage).

An Echo cannot surprise creatures. An Echo cannot make a hide check or roll initiative.

 

[Todd Roybark]

An Echo cannot surprise creatures. An Echo cannot make a hide check or roll initiative.

As an aside, you seem agitated Mistwell, or perhaps I am misreading the subtext. Regardless, I hope all is well.

The Echo Avatar power allows the Echo to be up to 1000 feet away. Nothing states one cannot still use the features described at 3rd level. If your consciousness is in the extended range Echo Avatar....logically why wouldn’t one be able to roll initiative. The essential you that is your consciousness is there in the Echo Avatar.

Technically your consciousness is more present in the Echo, then when viewing out of a Familiar.
While the Familiar responds to your commands, the caster of Find Familiar is just a remote viewer with a telepathic comm link. The Familiar is independent, though compliant.


By RAW your hidden Rogue getting the benefits of being hidden on attacks through the Echo, should work.
I’ve detailed my objection to the implications of RAW, and explained what my table ruling was previously. You seemed fine with it then.

While I like the Echo Knight as a subclass, there still seem to be quite a few rough edges and grey zones regarding how the subclass features interact with the system.

Theoretically a Druid/Echo Knight could summon an Echo while in Wildshape, (and potentially boost their Con modifier for Echo Knight powers).

Echo Avatar is a good scouting vessel, if the vessel is destroyed and you have Reclaim Potential at 15th lvl, you just got an 2d6 +Con Temp HPs.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The phrase "RAW is for idiots" sounds like the sort of thing that only problematic players and DMs would say. You know, the folks who would rather hold the table hostage with an argument than ever back down from their Cool Idea.

I was, of course, joking. Most of the time RAW works just fine. However, if RAW directly conflicts with narrative logic (breaks suspension of disbelief) then at our table narrative logic always trumps RAW.

In this case, narrative logic tells us that the important thing to qualify for a sneak attack is the attack is concealed, not the attacker.

Consider this example that does not involve echoes:

The assassin is contracted to kill the king. The perform a heroic dead and are due to receive a medal from the king. They wear a long coat (fashionable in this land) and construct a false arm (using disguise kit proficiency). Under their coat they clutch a dagger in their real hand. As the approach the king they make a stealth check to beat the perception of the king and his bodyguards. The assassin strikes the king with the concealed dagger, making a sneak attack, even though they are themselves not hidden.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

A box? No, he's hiding behind an ally which is what his race, and only his race, can do.

I can't understand why anyone would think where and how the character is hiding makes the slightest bit of difference.