Rogue Mastermind Archetype Up, Courtesy of Extra Life

They stole my my help as a bonus action idea...

 

[TwoSix]

Wtf are you babbling about 18 levels. It's a 12th level character, and yeah if you can't see the problem with having the capabilities of a 12th level character at 3rd level, the problem is on your end and is indicative of the whole everything you suggest for a warlord is overpowered and broken. Also truth be told you can get near it by 9th level with a 3/3/3 split. I just threw in the other 3 levels for feats and a second attack.

I probably would have gone 3/3/6, the bard 5 ability to regain inspiration points on a short rest is fantastic for the feel of the build, and you get Extra Attack at Valor bard 6 anyway.

But the thing is, those combination of abilities isn't the right power level for a 12th level character...if they were, they would be gated that way for a single level class. Disintegrate is a power for a level 12 character. Or a fighter's 3rd attack. The problem with multiclassing is that you get abilities intended for low level characters as your high level powers. Sometimes that works out great because they synergize well (see Sorlock and Pallylocks, but most of the time it's a poor fit. Asking for a class to get some functions of the bard inspiration dice, the mastermind help at range ability, and the battlemaster's Commander's Strike manuever (or whatever they call it in 5e, I always refer to it as Commander's Strike) by 5th or 6th level doesn't seem overpowered to me.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Wtf are you babbling about 18 levels. It's a 12th level character, and yeah if you can't see the problem with having the capabilities of a 12th level character at 3rd level, the problem is on your end and is indicative of the whole everything you suggest for a warlord is overpowered and broken. Also truth be told you can get near it by 9th level with a 3/3/3 split. I just threw in the other 3 levels for feats and a second attack.

no one wants the power of a 12th level character at level 1... no one has asked for that...

again start at level 1 with d4's (I would say start with 2 of them) in a die pool that was BOTH inperation from bard and combat manuiver from battle master, give them a list of manuviers they can take (just off the cuff commander strike and inspire as per the bard is enough at 1st level... but to give some choice make 1 or 2 others up to go with) at level 2 give them the help as a bonus action, at level 3 choose sub class (inspiring or tactical) one extra die to the die pool and boost them to d6's... at level 4 they come back every short rest instead of long... at level 6 give them a second attack, at level 8 let them when ever they roll initative and have 1/2 there pool or less get 1d back... the dice go to d8's at 11, and d10's at 20th... always behind damage on battle master (only 2 attacks also) make up manuivers based on 4e powers that have level requirments... give more dice but less die code... let one manuiver heal 'spend a die, target CAN spend a Hit die and gain a bonus equal to your die.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

no one wants the power of a 12th level character at level 1...

You can't know that. And my decades of experience, with hundreds upon hundreds of players, tells me otherwise.

no one has asked for that...

I disagree. Or, at least, I agree in as much as it hasn't been said in so many words. But the implication has been there several times by several people.

 

[UnadvisedGoose445]

Asking for a class to get some functions of the bard inspiration dice, the mastermind help at range ability, and the battlemaster's Commander's Strike manuever (or whatever they call it in 5e, I always refer to it as Commander's Strike) by 5th or 6th level doesn't seem overpowered to me.

Huh. That seems an odd statement for me personally. Those seem like very strong features to have by 5 or 6. Considering Extra Attack wasn't mentioned, I can kind of see it though. Would this build include the very divisive inspirational healing?

I guess the odd thing for me is that 5e seems designed to allow for characters to shine and function in solo scenarios (given proper encounter design of course), and this character doesn't seem like it would function in any scenario like that. To each their own, though.

 

[TwoSix]

The second problem there is that it's a class composed of bits sullen from other classes. It's interesting for home brew but is something that likely won't ever be officially built.

Sure, but for homebrew you usually want to stick with known mechanics because
a) it helps with communication to the user so they don't have to learn a bunch of new concepts and
b) it makes it more palatable for DMs to accept if it's based on mechanics they already know how to run for.

An official class could combine some of those features into a single pool. The healing feature and the grant attack features and grant bonuses features could all run off that pool, for example. Heck, if you appears too strong, split some of the features into the subclasses. Have a rallying warlord that does the healing, and tactician that grants the attack bonuses.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Well, let's see...

• How long do you have to wait to be an archmage? You are in for disappointment if that's the character you want to play.
• Why do I have to wait til 10th level for my bard to be able to cast goodberries? It's only a 1st level spell, for cryin' inna bucket. My bard concept is that he can cast it starting at 1st. That's not fair. That's the character I want to play.
• Why can't my druid turn into a raven until 8th level. That's lame. I want to be a raven earlier. That's my character concept. That's the character I want to play.

You can be a wizard, a bard, or druid, all at level 1, and be able to do and play the way you want... you can cast goodberries at level 5 as a straight bard, or 4 if you spend a feat... I on the other hand have to multi through 3 classes and only have low level powers in a high level game because my concept and class doesn't exsisit out of the box...

And no, you are not "being nothing" until 12th level.

Your right, I'm a fighter for 3 levels, and a rogue for 3 levels so I am a pretty good if not great combat monster... in fact with 2d6 sneak attack a finess weapon and action surge second wind and a good dex I will probably be a great front line combatant... then I lean magic and that gives me WAY more options (because that is where fun options are hidden in this edition, behind the magic wall)

You are growing into the end-result like every other class.

except I'm growing not in the way I want...

You are picking up warlord aspects from as early as 1st level if you make certain choices at character creation.

if I take bard and am a spell caster...

You just don't get everything out of the gate.

I don't want everything I want a damn balanced warlord

It's the "It needs to do it all," that puts so many people off to the idea of this class

it doesn't need to be as good with skills as a rouge, it doesn't need to be as good at combat as the fighter and it doesn't need (and most likely shouldn't have) spells like a bard... and defiantly not the music/story teller aspect of the bard... the problem is to pick the one or 2 aspects of each class you get all the rest...

. I don't think it can be anything but broken by the time you fit everything you folks want it to have.

or again you could only put warlord like things in...

I say that with the evidence of every homebrew I've seen to date. Show me one that isn't broken and we'll talk.

I would but the professional people who make classes (WotC) hasn't tried to make one yet...

But it is my opinion that the handful of you religiously advocating for one will never be happy because it will never live up to your expectations and demands.

only because you don't understand the demands

 

[TwoSix]

You can't know that. And my decades of experience, with hundreds upon hundreds of players, tells me otherwise.

OK, no one rational who should be engaging in game design discussion on the Internet is saying that.

 

[Orlax]

I probably would have gone 3/3/6, the bard 5 ability to regain inspiration points on a short rest is fantastic for the feel of the build, and you get Extra Attack at Valor bard 6 anyway.

But the thing is, those combination of abilities isn't the right power level for a 12th level character...if they were, they would be gated that way for a single level class. Disintegrate is a power for a level 12 character. Or a fighter's 3rd attack. The problem with multiclassing is that you get abilities intended for low level characters as your high level powers. Sometimes that works out great because they synergize well (see Sorlock and Pallylocks, but most of the time it's a poor fit. Asking for a class to get some functions of the bard inspiration dice, the mastermind help at range ability, and the battlemaster's Commander's Strike manuever (or whatever they call it in 5e, I always refer to it as Commander's Strike) by 5th or 6th level doesn't seem overpowered to me.

You get that this character's action economy is insane right. Yeah he doesn't have disintegrate. He can walk up next to someone heal them, help them in their next attack against an enemy within 30 feet, then attack that enemy twice and direct the strike to have the guy you just healed attack the enemy with advantage and have another character whose got temp hit points and a floating bardic inspiration die also attack the enemy you shot. You can do this once or twice every short rest, and can net advantage to an attack for an ally every single round in addition to attacking twice. This doesn't even take into account actually using the spell casting you have, or the fact that your durability is incredibly high thanks to second wind, or that your skill proficiencies are quite numerous and you have expertise to like three of those skills. This character is quite useful to the point that it is in my book as a character I'm going to play. Sure it can't cast disintegrate, but that isn't the point of this character.

 

[TwoSix]

And yet nowhere in these posts do you come out and say... you don't advocate for it or even explain that you understand or support the other view point. In other words if all you show is sympathy for one side of an issue... it's the same as advocating for it. But whatever, I'm not in the mood for Pedantry and Particulars so I'll let you continue to sympathize without really advocating for and I'll continue with discussion elsewhere..

I am advocating for it, just for the record. It's a fun mechanic in both Pathfinder and 4e, and I'd like to see it used in 5e.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The second problem there is that it's a class composed of bits sullen from other classes. It's interesting for home brew but is something that likely won't ever be officially built.

well I suck at balanceing homebrew... I bet if there was a company full of professional designers they would do better...

You said "concept". I think that's an important word. Because you can actually play the "concept" or a warlord as early as 1st level (3rd gets you a bit more crunch to represent mechanically, but the "concept" comes as early as right away).

"Concept".

But I have a feeling, when you said "concept that 4e...", you meant "all the mechanics that 4e...". Which will never happen. This ain't 4e. But if you are ultimately interested in playing all the warlord mechanics found in 4e, I have an easy solution for you...

since I play 5e and in general injoy it, and all of my groups are split between pathfinder (I hate that game), Old WOrld of darkness, and 5e what is the solution again... I bet it's don't play...

there is no reason the concept of a second teir combatant (like the cleric so d8's hd and heavy armor prof) with no extra skill stuff couldn't be made... nobody is asking for the fighter extra attacks or the bard spells or the rogue sneak attack... heck the manuiver dice could start at d3, go up to d4 and end at d6 so they never get near the battlemaster damage