Rogue Powers from Martial Power

[ceswiedler]

My rogue has just reached 5th level and (especially considering the new 1st level dailies from MP) I'm pretty underwhelmed by my choices.

Downward Spiral (5th) doesn't seem any better than Blinding Barrage (1st). Downward Spiral is close burst 1, attacks reflex, knocks targets prone, and does 1W as a melee attack. Blinding Barrage is close blast 3, attacks AC, blinds targets, 2W ranged attack. 1W with my rapier is pretty close to 2W with a thrown dagger, so I'll call that even. Blinding Barrage provokes OAs but Downward Spiral requires that I be in the middle of combat. I've been able to hit 3-5 enemies when using BB, I imagine I can probably get about the same with DS. Hitting reflex is nice, and so is knocking prone on a hit or miss. However blinded until the end of my next turn guarantees an attack with CA by anyone in my party, whereas enemies can stand up from prone on their turn, meaning I probably won't get an attack with CA unless I spend an AP.

Driving Assault seems nice (two attacks at 1W, push back 1 square per attack, and knock prone if both hit) especially since it doubles the chance to connect with a sneak attack.

Flashy Riposte will get me an extra attack per encounter, since it's a pretty good bet that I'll be attacked by something I'd like to counterattack with, and it grants CA.

Two of the 5th level dailies (Staggering Assault and Walking Wounded) both revolve around slowing enemies, which seems pretty useless to me.

On the other hand, I'm quite interested in some of the new 1st-level dailies from MP, such as Handspring Assault and Precise Incision, both of which are 3W reliable powers. (A side question: isn't Handspring Assault almost strictly better than Precise Incision, in that it lets you shift?) So I'm almost, but not quite, thinking of keeping Blinding Barrage and taking Handspring Assault (a 1st-level daily from MP) instead of any of the 5th-level dailies, and that disappoints me.

Am I missing something in my reading of these new powers?

 

[DracoSuave]

Level 3 and level 5 powers aren't always supposed to be better than level 1 powers, so much as supplimentary. Do a comparison by level for a -lot- of classes, and you might find the same disparity.


And blinding barrage doesn't provoke; close powers don't do that.

 

[Korror]

You might be overlooking a few things in your analysis. Downward Spiral has the rattling keyword which means that all your targets are going to have a -2 to hit for a round. Personally, I'd still take blinding barrage over it (which does not provoke opportunity attacks). I like the new level 5 dailies for the rogue but that's primary because the old level 5 dailies were sort of subpar. I think Driving Assault's 2 attacks at 1[W] might be strictly better than a 3[W] attack because you add all your bonus damage twice if both attacks hit which is a lot more than simply adding another weapon dice. I haven't done the math on this and it's probably only going to do more damage consistently once you get to be a higher level. Certainly, Driving Assault's better for a dagger rogue than a rapier one.

I'm not sure about the utility of the interruption powers. If you know the target is going to attack you, then they're great as it allows you to fire off two attacks in one round. But they're dependant on the monsters action which means you may not be able to use them when most needed which I think is a flaw in a daily.

Handspring Assault targets AC while Precise Incision targets Reflex which is big difference.

 

[Danceofmasks]

I like a few of them ..

Staggering assault is really nice if your team is into kiting. Just throw and retreat every round ... although, it's quite specialised ... an all elf team would love it.

Compel the craven is just cool. The target moves away. It is not forced movement. They provoke OAs, etc .. and other effects may trigger off it, too. From dire radiance to divine challenge (with other PCs interposed), it could be very cheesy.

But ... my fav level 5 power is still clever riposte. An artful dodger can provoke OAs every turn ... although, when teamed with a good defender, the OA could be so potentially painful they forgo it.

 

[blargney the second]

Compel the Craven rocks if you've got some people in the party with good basic melee attacks adjacent to the target.

 

[Skallgrim]

Downward Spiral (5th) doesn't seem any better than Blinding Barrage (1st). Downward Spiral is close burst 1, attacks reflex, knocks targets prone, and does 1W as a melee attack. Blinding Barrage is close blast 3, attacks AC, blinds targets, 2W ranged attack. 1W with my rapier is pretty close to 2W with a thrown dagger, so I'll call that even. Blinding Barrage provokes OAs but Downward Spiral requires that I be in the middle of combat. I've been able to hit 3-5 enemies when using BB, I imagine I can probably get about the same with DS. Hitting reflex is nice, and so is knocking prone on a hit or miss. However blinded until the end of my next turn guarantees an attack with CA by anyone in my party, whereas enemies can stand up from prone on their turn, meaning I probably won't get an attack with CA unless I spend an AP.

...

Am I missing something in my reading of these new powers?

I don't think you are missing something from Downward Spiral, but I do think that you are discounting something. Knocking prone automatically is very rare, and pretty darn useful. Regardless of defenses, each target is down on the ground. That's pretty good, and is very useful both for combat advantage, and for allowing you, or other party members, to disengage. That auto-prone is so reliable, while so many status effects are conditional on hitting. It makes for a really nice ace in the hole.

 

[ceswiedler]

OK, I can see that Downward Spiral is useful because it automatically knocks prone. I was focusing more on the fact that blinded is a better condition to inflict than prone.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Downward spiral is an automatic prone for up to 8 foes (ie - for most foes you will use up their move action) PLUS a -2 to attacks for the next round on most of them, PLUS you can roll all your attacks from it and then apply sneak attack to whomever you crit.

Compel the craven could grant you a basic attack from every single party member (excluding yourself). If you've got a melee heavy party, then that can be a huge amount of damage. Plus it also gives the target a -2 to attacks for the next round.

Also - you need to compare to the powers at level 5, not to blinding barrage. You can only take blinding barrage once (and it's significantly more powerful than any of the other level 1 options, or even the level 5 options).

Walking wounded, for instance, is one of the more powerful PHB level 5 powers. In a melee heavy party, and in most fight environments, its effect is limited at best.

Generally, rogue dailies are not that great at dealing damage. What you use them for is to inflict status ailments. Compel has the potential to be one of the best damage-inflicting dailies. Downward spiral is a guaranteed infliction of a pretty decent status effect (if you use it at the right time).

 

[Klaus]

I'll say one thing for Walking Wounded: it's one of the best powers to bring down flying foes. Flaying + Prone = Crash (possibly falling damage). And it'd force a downed foe to fly no more than 2 sqaures per round, or fall prone (and crash) again.

I'm torn between that or Compel the Craven (which I can benefit more because I just trained Intimidate).

 

[Saeviomagy]

I'll say one thing for Walking Wounded: it's one of the best powers to bring down flying foes. Flaying + Prone = Crash (possibly falling damage). And it'd force a downed foe to fly no more than 2 sqaures per round, or fall prone (and crash) again.

I'm torn between that or Compel the Craven (which I can benefit more because I just trained Intimidate).

It really depends on how many party members you have that are in melee. If your party is mostly ranged, then take walking wounded and persuade your defender NOT to stay toe-to-toe. Otherwise pick compel. While it might seem nice to hurt fliers badly: you won't actually tend to meet many of them, and those that you do meet will tend to come to ground to fight, primarily because melee fighters are basically cut out of any fight that has a flying, ranged attacker.