D&D 5E Rogue Stealth in Battle

[Wik]

I feel the need to verify a few claims. Majoru is mostly right, though this "full cover" thing isn't exactly right.

Basically, you can try to hide from someone when they can't see you. There is no "full cover" business. If it's pitch black, but you're in an open room, you can hide. If it's a smoky room, you can hide. If you're crouched behind a barrel, you can hide. The only requirement is that the guy you're hiding from cannot see you.

After that, you make your check. You are hidden until you do something that changes that condition - usually attacking. But let's say I hide behind a column. If I move out from behind that column into the open, I might have to make another stealth check - with disadvantage, maybe - to avoid notice.

Now, what if you see me hide behind a barrel? Well, if you SAW me try to hide, I automatically fail, because you can see me. But maybe I'm behind the barrel and out of your sight? You know roughly where I am, but you're unsure. If I pass the check, there's enough doubt in your mind that I'm hidden. In this case, maybe you think I used that barrel as a trick to get somewhere else. Or you're not entirely sure I ducked behind THAT barrel.

Unlike what Majoru said, I'd let a PC that's hidden behind a column stay hidden, even if a monster moves into line of sight of the PC. In this case, the PC has adjusted her position in relation to the monster's movement. This happens all the time in films - I'm thinking particularly of the scene in the first Jurassic Park, where Lex (or was it Tim?) is hiding from the Raptors, and constantly changing her position as the raptors move through the kitchen.

So, let's talk sneak attack.

I attack from hiding, and deal a buttload of sneak attack damage to you. I then move behind a column, and hide again as a bonus action. You know where I am (behind that column!) but you can't get somewhere to see me because I'm a ways away. So, you focus on something else. I pop up from hiding and snipe you, move back to my original hiding space, and hide again as a bonus action. Even though you knew roughly where I was, I still get sneak attack damage, because I was hidden up until the point where I took my shot. You could say this was because while you knew where I was, you weren't giving me full attention, and were a bit surprised exactly WHEN I popped up from hiding.

On your turn, you say "hell with this!", draw your crossbow, and ready an action to shoot when I reveal myself. I pop out from hiding and get ready to shoot. But you've got me covered, pull off a shot. Whether you hit or miss, you can now see me, so I wound't get to sneak attack you.

Ultimately, Defcon 1 is correct. the PC has spent a resource on getting this ability - there's little reason to prevent it from happening. If it's a big problem in your game, just remember that area attacks from monsters can really hurt a rogue - especially if they destroy cover as well as deal damage (which could well wind up being the secondary point).

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I feel the need to verify a few claims. Majoru is mostly right, though this "full cover" thing isn't exactly right.

Let me be more clear then. I use "Full Cover" as shorthand for anything that blocks people from seeing you. If a barrel is big enough and you can somehow completely crouch behind it without your feet, arms or any other part of your body sticking out at all, then you are officially "unseen" and can hide. Most barrels aren't that big. Generally you need a wall or a really big column or something. My general guideline is that it has to be at least 5 feet by 5 feet to be considered an obstacle big enough to hide behind. This tends to rule out most 2 foot wide barrels. But whether you can be seen or not is always a DM call.

The same thing is true of a smokey room. In most smokey rooms you can still make out the outline of someone within the smoke and although you can't see them clearly, you can still see them. The rule is that you can't be seen at all in order to start hiding. Obviously, this is going to be another one of those situations where the DM needs to rule on just HOW smokey this room is. If you can barely see your hand in front of your face, you have absolutely no chance of seeing someone 30 feet away from you on the other side of the room, so they should be able to hide. The Heavy Obscurement condition simulates this by making you unable to see anyone more than 5 feet away from you, thus allowing them to hide.

After that, you make your check. You are hidden until you do something that changes that condition - usually attacking. But let's say I hide behind a column. If I move out from behind that column into the open, I might have to make another stealth check - with disadvantage, maybe - to avoid notice.

The rules say that as soon as you no longer have cover or obscurement then hiding ends. That means if you leave that column, hiding ends immediately unless the room has dim light, the entire room is engulfed in fog or you keep moving from barrel to box to chair if they have no gap between them. This is a key part of the stealth rules working correctly. Otherwise you get weird situations where someone can "Hide" while you are looking at them and there's no good reason they can't see you.

There is a provision in the rules that says the DM can rule you can still hide without cover or obscurement if he/she rules that the enemy is "sufficiently distracted". Which means you might be able to throw a rock or something and have the enemy look in that direction long enough for you to run from one hiding spot to another. But otherwise, any attempt to move "out in the open" immediately ends hiding.

Now, what if you see me hide behind a barrel? Well, if you SAW me try to hide, I automatically fail, because you can see me. But maybe I'm behind the barrel and out of your sight? You know roughly where I am, but you're unsure. If I pass the check, there's enough doubt in your mind that I'm hidden. In this case, maybe you think I used that barrel as a trick to get somewhere else. Or you're not entirely sure I ducked behind THAT barrel.

And this is exactly why it's key that someone have "Total Cover"/"Total Obscurement" to hide. The enemy has to not be able to see you at all. If you stand behind a barrel and crouch, the enemy is almost definitely going to be able to see the top of your head sticking out or possibly your arm or leg or weapon or something. Barrels are generally good enough to get "cover" but not enough to make you completely unseen. Once again, depending on the size of the barrel.

But, mostly I agree with this. The idea is that you duck behind something. The enemy loses sight of you. They don't know your precise location anymore. Are you going to attack from the left side of the huge barrel or the right side? No idea. They also don't see enough of you to know precisely WHEN you are going to break cover and attack. That ambiguity is enough for the attacker to get Advantage on their attack.

Unlike what Majoru said, I'd let a PC that's hidden behind a column stay hidden, even if a monster moves into line of sight of the PC. In this case, the PC has adjusted her position in relation to the monster's movement. This happens all the time in films - I'm thinking particularly of the scene in the first Jurassic Park, where Lex (or was it Tim?) is hiding from the Raptors, and constantly changing her position as the raptors move through the kitchen.

I'd allow it outside of combat. If someone was sneaking around without any combat happening, I'd allow them to continually move from cover to cover as long as the enemies weren't looking precisely in their direction. The key thing is that the enemy doesn't see you. Outside of combat the enemies might be reading a book or staring intently as a game board or just watching in a different direction. They don't know you are there and therefore have no reason to look in your direction.

In combat, movement only happens on your turn. So you can't adjust your position as someone comes walking around. Almost everything is happening nearly simultaneously anyways so you don't have time to realize someone is walking around and adjust your position since you are doing whatever actions you declared during your turn at the same time.

On your turn, you say "hell with this!", draw your crossbow, and ready an action to shoot when I reveal myself. I pop out from hiding and get ready to shoot. But you've got me covered, pull off a shot. Whether you hit or miss, you can now see me, so I wound't get to sneak attack you.

You can only ready a reaction to something you can perceive. Readying an action doesn't allow you to see something you couldn't already see. If the person made a Stealth check, they can sneak attack you, regardless of whether you readied an action or not.

This would go in this order:
1. Enemy moves partially into view but cannot be seen since they are hidden and still have cover from the pillar(You are looking for them but you fail to see them because their Stealth check beat your Passive Perception).
2. Enemy fires while hidden, you get sneak attacked.
3. Enemy is now no longer hidden and can be seen since attacking ends Hiding.
4. Your readied attack goes off and you attack them(with them having a cover bonus so -2 to your attack)
5. They then move back behind the pillar and can no longer be seen
6. They make another Stealth check to hide

 

[Wik]

Didn't mean to pick on you, Majoru. Just wanted to clarify a few of your points - we're mostly on the same page! You just prefer to have hard rules, and I'm more of a loosey-goosey GM.

This would go in this order:
1. Enemy moves partially into view but cannot be seen since they are hidden and still have cover from the pillar(You are looking for them but you fail to see them because their Stealth check beat your Passive Perception).
2. Enemy fires while hidden, you get sneak attacked.
3. Enemy is now no longer hidden and can be seen since attacking ends Hiding.
4. Your readied attack goes off and you attack them(with them having a cover bonus so -2 to your attack)
5. They then move back behind the pillar and can no longer be seen
6. They make another Stealth check to hide

If I hide behind somewhere, and you know where I hid (but can't see me), I think the GM should let you ready an action to shoot me when I pop out from cover.... provided that you specify where you're readying to fire. If, somehow, I were to shoot at your from somewhere else entirely, well then, you're S.O.L.

 

[Uller]

So here is how I run stealth in combat...

First off, I go by the assumption that combat isn't happening in a well lit open space. If so, then I might change it up. But most of the time, it's happening in a dark tight space cluttered with furniture, debris, vegetation, etc. So I'm pretty liberal and don't bother asking the rogue player for a lot of details on how he goes about hiding. I generally assume there is somewhere to hide (at least until he succeeds and scores a hit with sneak attack damage...then the second assumption kicks in)

The second assumption is that unless a foe is unintelligent (Int of 1) it isn't going to fall for the same trick over and over. After the first success, subsequent hide checks are with disadvantage. After the second success, passive perception gets advantage (+5 is pretty substantial).

Third assumption: When a rogue character announces they are hiding, they must be spending some sort of resource. Usually their cunning action. So I try to consider how to make that opportunity cost (the opportunity to disengage or dash) really mean something by positioning high damage potential monsters where they can really hurt the rogue if they manage score a hit.

So, yes, I will generally be very liberal about the rogue character hiding to gain advantage, then attacking. Maybe he ducks behind a rock waits for his target to get distracted by the action around them, then pops back out for a well timed shot. But in exchange for doing this he's given up some ability to move safely away. Any reasonably intelligent foe will fall for this about one time. Then they will take measures to counter that. Readied actions work quite well.

Last week we were introducing my 15 yo nephew to D&D during a rainy day on our family vacation (my 14 yo daughter and 17 yo son were playing too). We were playing the Lord of Lance Rock adventure in PotA. My daughter was playing the halfling rogue from the LMoP and my nephew was playing the archer. (everyone was 2nd level...my son was playing the cleric and the fighter, so four characters total)

In the last battle against the necromancer and his minions, the rogue started off hidden, fired at the necromancer and did a good amount of damage then moved to behind some debris and hid again. But the necromancer isn't dumb. So he ordered his skeletons to watch for the halfling and kill her.

My daughter didn't take the clue. She popped out of hiding to repeat her trick (and I let her get the shot off first)...then the readied skeletons fired 4 arrows at her. 3 hit (one was a crit). She took something like 21 damage and only had 13 hp to start with so down she went...she hit the necromancer on her shot as well but he still have plenty of hp. The only thing that ended the fight was a crit from the archer (and my nephew was very pleased to avenge his cousin!)

 

[Psikerlord#]

I would never let a anyone use hide in the middle of a battle behind something like a barrel. If it's bloody obvious where the character is, then they have full cover, but they can't hide. Hiding is more than not being seen and in that case the enemy knows exactly where the character is even if they can't see them.

The character would have to disappear behind a maze of stalagmites or run around a corner or something that makes the enemy unsure of the character's exact position.

I agree. I generally only allow hiding for the start of combat - the ambush. Once combat is underway, it is usually impossible to hide in my games. Your enemies know you are there somewhere, and are keeping an eye/ear out for you. If you want adv on your attack, you will generally need to find it some other way...

 

[aramis erak]

I have an arcane trickster in my group who uses her bonus action to hide. She rolls and checks with me and I just think "yeah. Something is there larger than you so you succeed."


I don't mind her hiding to get advantage for sneak attacks but I wonder at it's necessity. I'm not sure what to do about monsters finding her to hit her. It strikes me as odd that she can do massive damage to an Ogre but have him ignore her when she is hidden.


So when she hides, do I roll monster perception to see if they find her? Is that what I should have her roll? Stealth roll to see what perception DC the monsters need to see her?

I feel like I'm missing something in the RAW.

If she's doing it with ranged attacks, it's more to get the advantage so she can add her bonus damage. Rogues are really light on the extra attacks, and the only way to make up for it is to engineer advantage often.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Personally... the reason why I do allow characters to hide during combat (thus getting Advantage on their subsequent attack-- usually ranged) is not because the enemies doesn't know where they are... it's because they don't know when/what side the attack is coming from. They can't see the raising of the bow, the nocking of the arrow, the drawing of the bowstring, or anything else like that which would normally inform the enemy how/when/where the attack is coming and could plan for it (which is why that attack would be just a normal attack roll.)

But when the character is hidden, I look at it like this-- it's all well and good that a monster that is fighting in melee against the fighter knows that the halfling is "behind that large tree over there" somewhere. But because the monster can't see any of the movement the halfling is making towards attack preparation while behind that tree... the monster's focus instead remains on the threat it *can* see, the fighter. As far as the monster is concerned... that's the only threatening action they are noticing and need to be worried about-- the fighter in front of them. Then suddenly the halfling pops out from his hiding space at some point during the 6 seconds of the combat round and fires almost instantaneously... which is why she gets Advantage. Although the monster had a general awareness of where the halfling was, there was no hints from the halfling as to when or where the attack was going to be coming from because the monster couldn't see those hints of the attack. The halfling was hidden.

Obviously, my methodology doesn't match everyone else's... but it makes sense to me and allows the halfling to use her abilities as she should.

 

[designbot]

The rule is that you can't be seen at all in order to start hiding.

And this is exactly why it's key that someone have "Total Cover"/"Total Obscurement" to hide. The enemy has to not be able to see you at all.

Actually, this is no longer true. The errata and newer versions of the PHB and basic rules specifically address this.

The old text read:

When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check’s total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
You can’t hide from a creature that can see you, and if you make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase), you give away your position. An invisible creature can’t be seen, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, however, and it still has to stay quiet.

The new text reads (emphasis added):

The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check’s total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
You can’t hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase. An invisible creature can’t be seen, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, however, and it still has to stay quiet.

 

[Hriston]

So when she hides, do I roll monster perception to see if they find her? Is that what I should have her roll? Stealth roll to see what perception DC the monsters need to see her?

Yes, using the monster's passive Perception score unless it is using the Search action. Keep in mind, however, this is only possible if you, the DM, have decided that the appropriate circumstances are available for her to hide successfully. It sounds like she's a lightfoot halfling and that she's hiding behind other creatures. Some DMs would rule that as long as she is in a space on the opposite side of her ally's space from the point of view of her opponent, then she can attempt to hide. Personally I find this very similar to the hiding behind a barrel issue referenced up-thread. Even though she is obscured by the larger creature and so cannot be seen, there remains the issue of her opponent knowing where she is. Under these circumstances alone, I wouldn't say that conditions appropriate for hiding had been met. The issue for me is that she is seen clearly going behind the other creature. In light of the above cited errata, my interpretation is that she must be lightly obscured at minimum or her opponent must be sufficiently distracted as she becomes obscured by her ally in order for her to then attempt to hide. Others will undoubtedly interpret this very differently, but this is the criteria I use to determine whether hiding is possible.

 

[Psikerlord#]

i recommend not using passive perception at all - it's a terribad mechanic, quite broken and harms the game more than it helps. Just roll (sometimes in secret, perhaps). It's far too easy for a specialised hider to hide otherwise. DMG somewhere states you can treat hiding as a contest - roll stealth vs roll perception.