D&D (2024) Rogue, Thug. Homebrew subclass

[Horwath]

this is class for a rogue to be a tough front liner. somewhat.

Thug

3rd level.
Proficiency with martial weapons.
Proficiency with medium armor and shields
Thug can add sneak attack damage with any weapon attack
Thug ignores Stealth penalty in medium armors.
Thug gains +1 HP per rogue level

9th level
gain one fighting style

13th level
Extra attack feature

17th level
Thug can make one weapon attack as a Cunning action
Thug can sneak attack twice on it's own turn, but sneak attacks must be against different targets.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

Medium armor caps at +2 Dex to AC, so Dex isn't as important past a score of 14. The shield offsets that, and that can be magical to help make for AC discrepancy.

But the trick is... we don't care about Medium Armor proficiency. Just keep using the light armor and get the shield so it's just additive!

So it ends up being a Dex-based, light-armored, rapier and buckler-wielding (or longbow-wielding) rogue with 3 attacks a round, two of which can be sneak attacks if they are spread around, not counting another potential sneak attack of opportunity.

I don't think there's much of a tradeoff or downside. This doesn't replace anything that the rogue class normally gets. All these subclass benefits are compared only to other subclasses, and demolishes them because it is pure damage and survival, no ribbons. Just look at the Assassin in comparison, with its comparatively mediocre Infiltration Expertise and Envenom Weapons.

 

[aco175]

I picture a thug as more a STR based rogue vs the more traditional 5e DEX based. He is less sneaky and more bouncer or fighter-type. Give him medium armor and shields. Give a few more weapons that can backstab, maybe not all martial weapons. I like getting the extra attack, but waiting until 13th level is where most of my games break up and would not come into play much.

 

[CreamCloud0]

this is class for a rogue to be a tough front liner. somewhat.

Thug

3rd level.
Proficiency with martial weapons.
Proficiency with medium armor and shields
Thug can add sneak attack damage with any weapon attack
Thug ignores Stealth penalty in medium armors.
Thug gains +1 HP per rogue level

9th level
gain one fighting style

13th level
Extra attack feature

17th level
Thug can make one weapon attack as a Cunning action
Thug can sneak attack twice on it's own turn, but sneak attacks must be against different targets.

I picture a thug as more a STR based rogue vs the more traditional 5e DEX based. He is less sneaky and more bouncer or fighter-type. Give him medium armor and shields. Give a few more weapons that can backstab, maybe not all martial weapons. I like getting the extra attack, but waiting until 13th level is where most of my games break up and would not come into play much.

i think i'd let them sneak attack on all non-heavy weapons, which for martial weapons gives them battleaxe, flail, longsword, morningstar, rapier, scimitar, shortsword, trident, warhammer, war pick, whip, blowgun, hand crossbow, musket and pistol, i'd move the cunning action attack to 9th and replace the fighting style with the ability to split up spending their sneak attack cunning strikes effects between their multiple attacks, this means they have their extra attack earlier but it's eating into their action economy until 13th.

defensively i'd bump their armour proficiencies all the way to heavy so that can actually synergise with their STR investments for non-finesse weapons, their stealth disadvantage on heavy gets nullified and this means they can't get advantage, i'd also throw CON saving throw proficiency in there somewhere too so they've got nearly all saving throws.

edit: looking at mirrorrorrim's comments i don't know if this enough incentives to make the thug with a STR build?
edit 2: if you let them use cunning strikes abilities on attacks even if they can't sneak attack on them this incentivises the use of the STR heavy weapons while repurposing their sneak attack rather than loosing out on it. (also offer to use STR instead of DEX for cunning strikes DCs)

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

I picture a thug as more a STR based rogue vs the more traditional 5e DEX based. He is less sneaky and more bouncer or fighter-type. Give him medium armor and shields. Give a few more weapons that can backstab, maybe not all martial weapons. I like getting the extra attack, but waiting until 13th level is where most of my games break up and would not come into play much.

Even then, it's too powerful compared to other subclasses. Even if given Medium Armor training, it's not worth using, so it is not a limiting factor. It will be ignored in favor of light armor and shield. Rogues are still never going to use Medium armor because Dex is a super ability, and so many other class abilities hinge on Dexterity for competence. Why would a rogue use a longsword when a rapier is the same damage for their Dex super ability?

To be constructive, how about this?

Level 3. No extra proficiencies. But every Simple weapon (they are already proficient) counts as a Finesse weapon for them (allowing them to even use clubs, greatclubs, and quarterstaves with Dexterity)
Level 3. No Extra Attack, but let them use both their Strength and Dexterity modifiers for weapon damage, as well as Acrobatics and Athletics checks.
Level 3. +1 HP per level.
Level 9: Let them use Cunning action to make another attack.
Level 13: A Fear effect of some sort.
Level 17: Daze and Knockout cost 2 less Sneak Attack Dice to use. (Daze costs 0 and Knockout costs 4).

 

[ECMO3]

this is class for a rogue to be a tough front liner. somewhat.

Thug

3rd level.
Proficiency with martial weapons.
Proficiency with medium armor and shields
Thug can add sneak attack damage with any weapon attack
Thug ignores Stealth penalty in medium armors.
Thug gains +1 HP per rogue level

9th level
gain one fighting style

13th level
Extra attack feature

17th level
Thug can make one weapon attack as a Cunning action
Thug can sneak attack twice on it's own turn, but sneak attacks must be against different targets.

This is way more powerful than other Rogue subclasses.

Compare this to assasin at 17th level that can double sneak attack damage in the first round of combat. Here you double sneak attack damage, plus get two more attacks than an Assasin gets.

If you want it more balanced take the 3rd level features, modify them a bit and spread them out like this:

3rd level:
Proficiency with medum armor, shields and improvised weapons
Unarmed strikes do 1d6 damage.
Can add sneak attack damage to any attack made with a simple melee weapon, unarmed strike or improvised weapon

9th level
Thug ignores Stealth disadvantage when using medium armor

13th level
Gets a Fighting Style Feat

17th level
+1 hit point per Rogue level
Can sneak attack twice in one turn

 

[CreamCloud0]

i think i'd let them sneak attack on all non-heavy weapons, which for martial weapons gives them battleaxe, flail, longsword, morningstar, rapier, scimitar, shortsword, trident, warhammer, war pick, whip, blowgun, hand crossbow, musket and pistol, i'd move the cunning action attack to 9th and replace the fighting style with the ability to split up spending their sneak attack cunning strikes effects between their multiple attacks, this means they have their extra attack earlier but it's eating into their action economy until 13th.

defensively i'd bump their armour proficiencies all the way to heavy so that can actually synergise with their STR investments for non-finesse weapons, their stealth disadvantage on heavy gets nullified and this means they can't get advantage, i'd also throw CON saving throw proficiency in there somewhere too so they've got nearly all saving throws.

edit: looking at mirrorrorrim's comments i don't know if this enough incentives to make the thug with a STR build?
edit 2: if you let them use cunning strikes abilities on attacks even if they can't sneak attack on them this incentivises the use of the STR heavy weapons while repurposing their sneak attack rather than loosing out on it. (also offer to use STR instead of DEX for cunning strikes DCs)

just to straighten up my ideas on my revisons of horwath's thug.
Rogue - Thug
3rd
-proficiency with martial weapons.
-proficiency with heavy armour and shields.
-can sneak attack with any non-heavy weapon.
-stealth disadvantage from medium/heavy armours is nullified.
-+1HP per rogue level.
9th
-you can make 1 weapon attack as a cunning action.
-you can spend sneak attack to use cunning strikes effects on any attack you make, including attacks that don't trigger sneak attack, you can spend these effects across multiple attacks.
-you can use STR instead of DEX to calculate cunning strikes DCs.
-proficiency in CON saving throws.
13th
-extra attack.
17th
-you can trigger sneak attack twice in 1 turn so long as you target different creatures with your attacks.

 

[Horwath]

Medium armor caps at +2 Dex to AC, so Dex isn't as important past a score of 14. The shield offsets that, and that can be magical to help make for AC discrepancy.

But the trick is... we don't care about Medium Armor proficiency. Just keep using the light armor and get the shield so it's just additive!

So it ends up being a Dex-based, light-armored, rapier and buckler-wielding (or longbow-wielding) rogue with 3 attacks a round, two of which can be sneak attacks if they are spread around, not counting another potential sneak attack of opportunity.

I don't think there's much of a tradeoff or downside. This doesn't replace anything that the rogue class normally gets. All these subclass benefits are compared only to other subclasses, and demolishes them because it is pure damage and survival, no ribbons. Just look at the Assassin in comparison, with its comparatively mediocre Infiltration Expertise and Envenom Weapons.

that is the tradeoff, you can go and sneak attack with a greatsword, but it costs you going full STR while still needing decent DEX and CON, sure that is why +1 HP per level helps.

sure you can go rapier+shield and it works at high level, but before that, you can just take one level of fighter and get some other subclass from rogue if rapier+shield is your goal.

if there is a lack of ribbons, 1d6 unarmed damage can be added to 3rd level, it's a ribbon feature.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I like the concept. I think extra attack is too much. Rest seems quite fine.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

I'd have tended to consider some sort of intimidation bonus or abilities. Might be a good ribbon candidate.