Horwath
Legend
yes, but it's an option for this homebrew.
rapier+shield is always a good combo, or just use a simple greatsword.
D&D (2024) Rogue, Thug. Homebrew subclass
- Thread starter Horwath
- Start date
rapier+shield is always a good combo, or just use a simple greatsword.
Mirrorrorrim
Hero
I'm not saying that you can't have fun with this homebrew if you make it for yourself or a player who really doesn't mind sucking at Dex-based Rogue abilities, or if you roll ability scores and have both a high Strength and Dexterity score.
I'm saying that for public consumption, the design does not encourage people to choose the build you are trying to capture.
Assuming point-buy, Rogues are super-nerfed if they go Strength-primary/Dexterity-secondary, because every other physical aspect of being a Rogue requires a high Dex, from Skills, to Saves (Evasion), to Initiative for going first.
The subclass still encourages Finesse weapons with an 18-20 Dexterity, over Heavy weapons and a 14-16 Dexterity.
Also, Light armor + Shield gives you a higher AC than Medium Armor (cap +2 Dex mod) + Shield.
And if you are Strength-primary, and need a moderate Dexterity, can you have a decent Charisma for Intimidation, which is iconic for a thug theme?
UngeheuerLich
Legend
Ok. Giving it to every rogue feels better than just to add it to a single subclass.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
Sorry. Doublepost.
Horwath
Legend
str 15+2
dex 14
con 13+1
int 8
wis 10
cha 12
switch CON and CHA if you feel brave.
Mirrorrorrim
Hero
What is the fantasy trying to be fulfilled? A thug? Someone that roughs up other people to intimidate and steal from them, but is still good at being a rogue? (treating all simple melee weapons as finesse weapons opens up clubs and staves and other "thug"-themed weapon options, some sort of toughness ability, and better intimidation-style abilities rounds it out.)
Or a frontline greatsword tank with sneak attack and mediocre rogue abilities?
Because they aren't the same thing and your subclass doesn't encourage either.
Your subclass, as designed, allows for lots of Str-based greatsword sneak attacks, with average Medium armor defenses, and mediocre rogue abilities, but it is better at giving lots of Dex-based rapier sneak attacks, with better Light armor-based defenses and great rogue abilities.
(Edited to add a deleted section to the first paragraph.)
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The same argument does not apply to Wizards or Bards.
Bladesinger is a weak subclass compared to 2014 Necromancy, Abjuration and Enchantment or any of the published 2024 subclasses.
Valor Bard is above average if you are throwing in the 2014 subclasses, but is notably weaker than either the 2014 or 2024 Glamor Bard and pretty close to the 2024 Lore Bard.
The Rogue subclass proposed is FAR stronger than other Rogues. Aside from being far more survivable due to much better AC and better hit points, it also has substantially more offensive power than Assassin, which is supposed to be the ultimate Rogue striker.
Also, thematically I don't see the reason to sneak attack with all martial weapons. I don't envision a Thug wielding a Greatsword, Pike, Halberd or Flail. I do see them using a Club, Spear or Hand axe and brutalizing people with their fists though. Thematically, I think a better argument exists for giving an Assassin martial weapon sneak attack than it does for a Thug.
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UngeheuerLich
Legend
You have the misconception that str is a bad stat.
Take the tavern brawler origin feat and later the grappler feat and take athetics.
Having 14 dex instead of 20 is not terrible. With medium armor and expertise you are still great at sneaking. Evasion still works well because you half the damage on a failure. Thief tools now have advantage because you probably have both, tools and sleight of hand skill probably with expertise. You don't need acrobstics.
Athletics is actually a very good skill for a rogue. It helps you breaking and entering entering places. Climbing on roofs. Jumping. All strength. Opening barred doors. You use that to escape grapples.
Jefe Bergenstein
Legend
In as far as they can be ranked, Strength is an inferior stat to Dexterity in 5E, as Dex covers offense, defense, initiative, stealth, etc. A 14 dex is no small investment in point buy, then you need to buy your actual attacking stat (and Con, and Cha if you want to intimidate). Evasion is Dex based. Everyone wants some Dex, Strength is an afterthought save for a Strength focused character.
Athletics is such a poorly defined and vague skill, and IIRC even got a downgrade in 2024 with trip/push being a strength save vs an Athletics check in 2014.
A bruiser rogue is MAD as hell, and any benefit is mainly flavor. You're basically buying two attack stats for the benefit of one.
Kinematics
Hero
If I were to craft a Thug subclass...
Subclass features for Rogue are at levels 3, 9, 13, and 17. 3 to 9 is a big gap, so you need something fundamental there that's going to carry the subclass through most common play levels.
Treating all simple weapons as having Finesse achieves the goal of making them valid Sneak Attack options, but I think works against the idea of the Thug being designed more for a Strength build. I'd simply add:
3A) You may use any simple weapon, or an attack with an Unarmed Strike, to perform a Sneak Attack.
When considering two-handed or versatile weapons used in two hands, I think I'm OK letting them work, since simple weapons never go above 1d8 damage, and you can already get that with a rapier. I don't think giving them proficiency in martial weapons, or the ability to Sneak Attack with most martial weapons, really fits.
The largest benefit here is the extra weapon masteries this opens up. (Sap, Slow, Push, and Topple for melee)
Medium armor and shield proficiency is fine.
3B) You have proficiency in medium armor and shields.
A couple minor features that seemed to match the Thug theme:
3C) You have advantage on Intimidation checks. You have advantage on saves made to resist being knocked prone.
As far as initiative goes, rather than boosting initiative, I'm thinking of flipping the Assassin's early attack option. This is also sort of in place of the HP boost, which I'm less keen on.
3D) You are resistant to any non-psychic damage from attacks made before your turn in the first round of combat.
So a lower initiative is actually not too bad. And a Thug doesn't really bring to mind "fast reactions" anyway. But soaking damage they can do. Meat shield scout, sally forth!
I'll grant that there are issues with the fact that, if the attacks happen before you move, you're far less likely to be in position to be attacked in the first place (unless you're the leading scout), which may make this less useful than it first appears. It's also less useful for ambushes/stealth, but again, that's not really the Thug's role.
Because of those limits, though, I figured resisting all damage types (aside from psychic) was fine.
EDIT: This also makes using Alert to take you down the initiative line an interesting choice. Other origin feats like Tavern Brawler or Tough can also be reasonably useful for different styles of play, and still fit the theme.
After that, @Mirrorrorrim 's ideas sounded fine.
Level 9: Let them use Cunning action to make another attack.
Level 13: A Fear effect of some sort.
Level 17: Daze and Knockout cost 2 less Sneak Attack Dice to use. (Daze costs 0 and Knockout costs 4).
Subclass features for Rogue are at levels 3, 9, 13, and 17. 3 to 9 is a big gap, so you need something fundamental there that's going to carry the subclass through most common play levels.
Treating all simple weapons as having Finesse achieves the goal of making them valid Sneak Attack options, but I think works against the idea of the Thug being designed more for a Strength build. I'd simply add:
3A) You may use any simple weapon, or an attack with an Unarmed Strike, to perform a Sneak Attack.
When considering two-handed or versatile weapons used in two hands, I think I'm OK letting them work, since simple weapons never go above 1d8 damage, and you can already get that with a rapier. I don't think giving them proficiency in martial weapons, or the ability to Sneak Attack with most martial weapons, really fits.
The largest benefit here is the extra weapon masteries this opens up. (Sap, Slow, Push, and Topple for melee)
Medium armor and shield proficiency is fine.
3B) You have proficiency in medium armor and shields.
A couple minor features that seemed to match the Thug theme:
3C) You have advantage on Intimidation checks. You have advantage on saves made to resist being knocked prone.
As far as initiative goes, rather than boosting initiative, I'm thinking of flipping the Assassin's early attack option. This is also sort of in place of the HP boost, which I'm less keen on.
3D) You are resistant to any non-psychic damage from attacks made before your turn in the first round of combat.
So a lower initiative is actually not too bad. And a Thug doesn't really bring to mind "fast reactions" anyway. But soaking damage they can do. Meat shield scout, sally forth!
I'll grant that there are issues with the fact that, if the attacks happen before you move, you're far less likely to be in position to be attacked in the first place (unless you're the leading scout), which may make this less useful than it first appears. It's also less useful for ambushes/stealth, but again, that's not really the Thug's role.
Because of those limits, though, I figured resisting all damage types (aside from psychic) was fine.
EDIT: This also makes using Alert to take you down the initiative line an interesting choice. Other origin feats like Tavern Brawler or Tough can also be reasonably useful for different styles of play, and still fit the theme.
After that, @Mirrorrorrim 's ideas sounded fine.
Level 9: Let them use Cunning action to make another attack.
Level 13: A Fear effect of some sort.
Level 17: Daze and Knockout cost 2 less Sneak Attack Dice to use. (Daze costs 0 and Knockout costs 4).
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