Rogues and the Alarm Spell

[Caliban]

Care to disprove it? All traps have triggers and some sort of effect. The alarm spell has a trigger and some sort of effect.

Ah, so no support to show then?

I wasn't aware that "some sort of effect" was in the defintion of a trap. Last I checked, it wasn't. I've already been over how alarm doesn't meet the definition of trap.

To refute that, you try to change the definition of trap. Sorry, but I'm not buying that.

 

[Scion]

That's not my definition of trap.

Frankly, it doesnt matter what you define a trap to be.

According to the raw the alarm spell is a trap. Simple as that. The srd quotes have shown this to be true.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Hmm.. I thought I said earlier that it looks like it was an "agree to disagree" situation. I guess that's not good enough for some people, they just have to "be right" and if you can't accept that, they start the personal comments.

Personal comments? I asked you to actually argue a point - you seem to be unable to do so.

I genuinely want a discussion about this - I genuinely want someone to say something that has the potential to change my mind.

Instead you seem to be ignoring all the points brought up, and simply reiterating your own point over and over, all the while complaining that we never pay attention to what you say.

I guess my frustration at your debating style was made manifest.

 

[Caliban]

Frankly, it doesnt matter what you define a trap to be.

According to the raw the alarm spell is a trap. Simple as that. The srd quotes have shown this to be true.

Repeating this same statement over and over again doesn't make it true.

 

[Caliban]

Personal comments? I asked you to actually argue a point - you seem to be unable to do so.

I have done so, repeatedly.

I genuinely want a discussion about this - I genuinely want someone to say something that has the potential to change my mind.

This does not seem to match what you have actually been doing.

Instead you seem to be ignoring all the points brought up, and simply reiterating your own point over and over, all the while complaining that we never pay attention to what you say.

Then you haven't been reading my posts. I can't respond to every single point in every single post. I simply don't have the time.

I'm definitely not going to take time to respond to arguements or points that are in posts that have personal attacks.

I've already spent to much time responding to this thread as it is. I've got a gaming convention to plan.

I guess my frustration at your debating style was made manifest.

Right, it's my fault you have been acting like a jerk. Whatever.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I have done so, repeatedly.

If you intend repeatedly to mean "I repeated the same thing over and over again", then I suppose this statement is accurate.

Please, tell my why it is that the alarm spell doesn't qualify as a trap, bearing in mind that
1. There is a trap in sunless citadel which is a bell on a spring, which is statted out with a search DC and a Disable device DC.
2. There are a number of traps which are spells
3. The lists for spell traps don't claim to be comprehensive
4. There IS at least one way to defeat an alarm spell without magic.
5. The dictionary definitions posted earlier in this thread either prohibit EVERY spell trap in the game from being a trap, OR allow alarm to be one.

 

[Caliban]

If you intend repeatedly to mean "I repeated the same thing over and over again", then I suppose this statement is accurate.

Please, tell my why it is that the alarm spell doesn't qualify as a trap, bearing in mind that
1. There is a trap in sunless citadel which is a bell on a spring, which is statted out with a search DC and a Disable device DC.

That's a physical device. It can be disabled whether or not it's a "trap" or an "alarm". I don't think it's relevent to this discussion.

2. There are a number of traps which are spells

I have never said anything different.

3. The lists for spell traps don't claim to be comprehensive

I wasn't aware of an actual list of spell traps. Just several spells that specifically identify themselves as magic traps, and of those that identify themselves as magical traps, they seem to have certain qualities in common, qualities that the alarm spell doesn't share (see below).

4. There IS at least one way to defeat an alarm spell without magic.

Ok, I'll bite. How do you defeat an alarm spell without magic? (Unless you mean "knowing the password", which I wouldn't count as "defeating" the alarm spell.)

5. The dictionary definitions posted earlier in this thread either prohibit EVERY spell trap in the game from being a trap, OR allow alarm to be one.

Could you explain your logic on this one? Because I don't see this contradiction.

My main point is this:

All the spells that identify themselves as magical traps have a physical component to them (with the possible exception of Fire Trap). The Alarm spell does not. (For me this is the main point, and what made me start looking at it more closely.)

All the spells that identify themselves as magical traps directly affect whoever triggers it (they blow you up, they trap you, they cast a spell on you, they inflict a status effect on you, etc.) An alarm spell doesn't do any of this. An alarm spell has no effect at all on whoever triggers it. It's just a sensor that makes a noise when it detects something. It doesn't "catch" you. (Whatever responds to the alarm can "discover" or "catch" or "harm" you.)

So the Alarm spell is different in two ways from all the spells that we know are magical traps. There are spells that count as magical traps but don't identify themselves as such in the spell description (Sepia Snake Sigil is one), but they should match up to the other aspects of the known trap spells.

In general, if the spell doesn't identify itself as a magical trap, then it probably isn't (with certain exceptions, just like everything else in 3.5).

I simply don't buy the theory that any spell that has a "trigger condition" should count as a magical trap.

In a home game, my rule would be "any triggered spell with a physical component is a valid target for Disable Device" (and even that would probably have exceptions), because that is consistent and makes sens. But that is neither here nor there.

Now I need to get some sleep. It's been a long weekend for me, I've played in 5 RPGA modules over the last three days (in addition to posting on this thread when I have time) to prepare judges to to run games at Hexacon 14.

 

[Scion]

Repeating this same statement over and over again doesn't make it true.

You really should listen to this yourself, as you have said nothing new for pages, nor refuted the srd.


What you are saying is that if there are two seperate situations where one is an alarm that tells me to jump up and start blasting and the other is an alarm that tells a laser to start blasting that the first is not a trap yet the second one is.

Nonsensical.

Also, along the same lines, if there is an alarm attatched to a laser and there is a switch in the next room that turns the laser on and off then, even though nothing physical about the situation in the first room, that you can somehow find the trap when the switch is on, and not find it when the switch is off.

Also nonsensical.

I personally dont care whether or not you can disable the alarm spell, that wasnt the original question. The question is whether or not the rogue can detect the alarm spell.

There would seem to be absolutely no reason not to allow it.

After all, as part of listed traps there is an alarm type spell. Since it has a certain radius then you must be able to detect something about it. Otherwise for a good number of traps you would have to 'spring' it in order to 'detect' it.

Therefore, since an alarm system on a house would be a type of trap, since there are traps that use an alarm type of spell, the alarm spell itself functions in 'exactly the same way' as a trap, and it meets all of the criteria in the trap section of the dmg, it is a trap that can be detected by the rogue.


A brick of manure has no listed damage in the phb (that I know of, if it does use some other instrument normally not used to attack that isnt listed). Are you saying that it cannot be used as a weapon? After all, it isnt listed in the weapons section, nor does it say 'weapon' under its description.

Of course, in the general sense of weapon it would easily fall under improvised weapons. But then, alarm easily fits within the definition of trap in the trap section.

 

[jgbrowning]

Edit: Nevermind.

joe b.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

I've already been over how alarm doesn't meet the definition of trap.

I've already been over how it does. I guess you glazed over it? It meets every DMG criteria of a trap, therefore it is a trap in D&D, regardless of it would be considered a trap in real life (which it would be, because it's a trap).