ROKUGAN- Oriental Adventures

[DracoSuave]

How - in game - a Shugenja, for example, deal with this kind of issue?

Shugenja, courtiers, and others that were technically samurai by caste, were permitted to nominate a champion to represent them in such disputes.

If the challenge was to the death, and their champion fell, they were expected to seppukku.

Non-samurai-caste were generally not dueled. There's no glory in it.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Oh! I forgot!

Another question to the more experienced: assuming not every character is supposed to be a "katana/Iajutsu" master, how you fellows usually dealt with interactions that could result in a duel?

No matter the system we use- I think - there will be 1 or 2 duelists in any party. The others would be social experts, religious experts, magic and taint experts and so on...

How - in game - a Shugenja, for example, deal with this kind of issue?

Kind of up to you really. You could have all duels be by designated champions or there could simply be other kinds of contests. A magic contest for instance is perfectly feasible, it could simply be based on using Arcana or you could simply have a couple Shukenja have at each other. Personally I like the Arcana use version myself.

As for the whole 5 Rings flavored magic, it is basically fluff. I don't see any real reason why it needs a specific mechanical representation. Some spells can be refluffed to be appropriate to a specific type and characters can always select powers and feats that exemplify their particular focus.

Social interactions in general work fine in 4e. They are based on social skills, bluff, insight, intimidate, diplomacy, or maybe streetwise (which is really a bit of a hash between a knowledge and a social skill). Skill Challenges can be used to deal with more elaborate situations. You'd probably want to have a way for characters to express specific talents, like calligraphy etc where those specific things are especially important, but they can be background-style situational modifiers to the existing skills effectively. The most elaboration you'd probably want there would be some way for the player to designate he wants to get better at one specific one of these talents, since advancement in 'courtly arts' is a standard theme. Depending on how much you focus on it you could have more or less detail. It could be ignored and take care of by level bonus, or you could have a general 'courtly arts' bonus on top of that, or you could get super detailed and let players advance any one specific art.

 

[Ryujin]

I would suggest adding an additional mechanic, an interaction modifier, to take into account that the society is very stratified. A commoner, who is interacting with a Samurai, is likely going to have somewhat a tough go of it. If it is assumed that your players are all from noble families, than this isn't as important.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I would suggest adding an additional mechanic, an interaction modifier, to take into account that the society is very stratified. A commoner, who is interacting with a Samurai, is likely going to have somewhat a tough go of it. If it is assumed that your players are all from noble families, than this isn't as important.

True. Of course any kind of vaguely pseudo-historical Western European (or pretty much any pre-modern) type of setting would have the same sort of thing. People probably are more likely to expect it in an OA type setting though.

 

[Ryujin]

True. Of course any kind of vaguely pseudo-historical Western European (or pretty much any pre-modern) type of setting would have the same sort of thing. People probably are more likely to expect it in an OA type setting though.

Agreed, though not to nearly as rigid and codified a degree.

 

[DracoSuave]

As for the whole 5 Rings flavored magic, it is basically fluff. I don't see any real reason why it needs a specific mechanical representation.

Given that each element in the five rings represents multiple things: It represents the actual element, the philosophies behind the element, and on top of that, physical and mental strengths that revolve around the element.

Let's look at Water, for example. Water, in the d20 system, is, as a score, based on the lowest of your Strength and your Willpower. This meant that Water shugenja were quite capable of imposing their will, physically AND mentally. It wasn't just 'They get some spells that get things wet' but their chosen elemental focus went deep into their capabilities.

Not to mention, Water shugenja weren't by happenstance; only three schools were teaching the ways of water: The Lion clan's Kitsu, the Unicorn clan's Iuchi, and the Phoenix clan's Isawa. Each had a different inherent philosophy involved as to which aspects of water they teached: Kitsu magic tended towards ancestral communion, Iuchi magic tended towards mobility and teleportation, and Isawa's was focused more on the general capabilities of water itself.

This 'fluff' actually expressed itself in very crunchy ways, in that each school had signature spells the others couldn't get, or in the case of Isawa, limitations the other two had simply did not apply. Combine that with the family itself; every family you could belong to had its own mechanical bonus to represent your heredity. An Iuchi-schooled shugenja usually was Iuchi born, but a memeber of the Moto might show some skill with the mystic arts. This would indicate a shugenja with slightly different stat-bias. Even the same clan sometimes had different kinds of shugenja: A Scorpion clan shugenja could be a Soshi-family, Air Shugenja, based on trickery, guile, spying, and information, as to investigate the enemies of the empire, and the clan. Or they could be a Yogo-family, Earth Shugenja, instead focusing on counter-magics, wards, shieldings, and ways of blocking and countering evil blood magics.

For someone who complains often that 4e tends to have little mechanical-fluff connection, I'm actually kind of surprised that you'd chalk down the Five Rings of Legend of the Five Rings down to 'mere fluff.' I think you're really cheating yourself out of a fantastic, flavorful system. The Five Rings determine every aspect of the game, from how magic works, to even how the books are laid out. (Hint: In five parts, each element representing a different part of the presentation)

 

[Dr_Sage]

Given that each element in the five rings represents multiple things: It represents the actual element, the philosophies behind the element, and on top of that, physical and mental strengths that revolve around the element.

Let's look at Water, for example. Water, in the d20 system, is, as a score, based on the lowest of your Strength and your Willpower. This meant that Water shugenja were quite capable of imposing their will, physically AND mentally. It wasn't just 'They get some spells that get things wet' but their chosen elemental focus went deep into their capabilities.

Not to mention, Water shugenja weren't by happenstance; only three schools were teaching the ways of water: The Lion clan's Kitsu, the Unicorn clan's Iuchi, and the Phoenix clan's Isawa. Each had a different inherent philosophy involved as to which aspects of water they teached: Kitsu magic tended towards ancestral communion, Iuchi magic tended towards mobility and teleportation, and Isawa's was focused more on the general capabilities of water itself.

This 'fluff' actually expressed itself in very crunchy ways, in that each school had signature spells the others couldn't get, or in the case of Isawa, limitations the other two had simply did not apply. Combine that with the family itself; every family you could belong to had its own mechanical bonus to represent your heredity. An Iuchi-schooled shugenja usually was Iuchi born, but a memeber of the Moto might show some skill with the mystic arts. This would indicate a shugenja with slightly different stat-bias. Even the same clan sometimes had different kinds of shugenja: A Scorpion clan shugenja could be a Soshi-family, Air Shugenja, based on trickery, guile, spying, and information, as to investigate the enemies of the empire, and the clan. Or they could be a Yogo-family, Earth Shugenja, instead focusing on counter-magics, wards, shieldings, and ways of blocking and countering evil blood magics.

For someone who complains often that 4e tends to have little mechanical-fluff connection, I'm actually kind of surprised that you'd chalk down the Five Rings of Legend of the Five Rings down to 'mere fluff.' I think you're really cheating yourself out of a fantastic, flavorful system. The Five Rings determine every aspect of the game, from how magic works, to even how the books are laid out. (Hint: In five parts, each element representing a different part of the presentation)

Draco,

you mentioned "blocking/counter blood magic" and such. I am curious: is that just special effects, or is it integrated into the mechanics?

 

[DracoSuave]

Draco,

you mentioned "blocking/counter blood magic" and such. I am curious: is that just special effects, or is it integrated into the mechanics?

There's a couple different effects of blood magic, the Taint itself, which Jade is protection from, but on top of that there's a handful of orders of Shugenja called kuroiban who had special training in dealing with blood magic. They were the masters of the wards. (Think those paper scrolls you see stuck on things in anime and manga.)

Then you had the magic of the Kuni which included ways to purify the Taint, but also sometimes went the 'Fight Fire with Fire' route. That tended to turn out poorly. (cough Kuni Yori cough).

Mind you, a lot of this stuff was from splat books, where the individual specialties of the clans were refined and explained in greater detail.


As an aside... only L5R had The Merchant's Guide to Rokugan. Basically, it was advertised and displayed as, well, a guide to the economy. However, three pages in, the book revealed itself as the guide to the secret terrorist organization trying to depose the rule of the Kami's Children. (The Kolat)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Given that each element in the five rings represents multiple things: It represents the actual element, the philosophies behind the element, and on top of that, physical and mental strengths that revolve around the element.

Let's look at Water, for example. Water, in the d20 system, is, as a score, based on the lowest of your Strength and your Willpower. This meant that Water shugenja were quite capable of imposing their will, physically AND mentally. It wasn't just 'They get some spells that get things wet' but their chosen elemental focus went deep into their capabilities.

Not to mention, Water shugenja weren't by happenstance; only three schools were teaching the ways of water: The Lion clan's Kitsu, the Unicorn clan's Iuchi, and the Phoenix clan's Isawa. Each had a different inherent philosophy involved as to which aspects of water they teached: Kitsu magic tended towards ancestral communion, Iuchi magic tended towards mobility and teleportation, and Isawa's was focused more on the general capabilities of water itself.

This 'fluff' actually expressed itself in very crunchy ways, in that each school had signature spells the others couldn't get, or in the case of Isawa, limitations the other two had simply did not apply. Combine that with the family itself; every family you could belong to had its own mechanical bonus to represent your heredity. An Iuchi-schooled shugenja usually was Iuchi born, but a memeber of the Moto might show some skill with the mystic arts. This would indicate a shugenja with slightly different stat-bias. Even the same clan sometimes had different kinds of shugenja: A Scorpion clan shugenja could be a Soshi-family, Air Shugenja, based on trickery, guile, spying, and information, as to investigate the enemies of the empire, and the clan. Or they could be a Yogo-family, Earth Shugenja, instead focusing on counter-magics, wards, shieldings, and ways of blocking and countering evil blood magics.

For someone who complains often that 4e tends to have little mechanical-fluff connection, I'm actually kind of surprised that you'd chalk down the Five Rings of Legend of the Five Rings down to 'mere fluff.' I think you're really cheating yourself out of a fantastic, flavorful system. The Five Rings determine every aspect of the game, from how magic works, to even how the books are laid out. (Hint: In five parts, each element representing a different part of the presentation)

Yes, and by both refluffing powers and building your character with his background in mind so that you use mechanics that evoke the appropriate feel of your character you can reproduce much of this kind of thing in 4e without any significant problem. The most important thing you need to do as a DM is make sure the players are well informed about the options and the story behind their chosen places in the world. It really can work quite well. In fact in many ways it can work better than dictating setting-related constraints by rule. This tended to be an area where L5R could get a bit in your way. Often the best approach is to tell the player what would be considered typical and then let them come up with something and explain why they are say a Moto clan water shukenja with a fire spell. Give the setting to the players and they'll actually get possessive enough about it to make it work well (and if they don't then a fine setting is likely lost on swine).

 

[DracoSuave]

Generally tho, if they are that familiar with the setting... they're probably already playing L5Rd10.

I'd agree that approach can work for one character, but for an entire party it feels a lot less like you're trying to play L5R and more like you're trying to make an L5R house out of sticks while a house made out of perfectly good bricks is just sitting there saying 'Use me!'

And there IS a big bad wolf that can blow the house down in the form of your characters resiliency. 4th edition characters are elites compared to their common enemies. L5R characters are not. The system just is not designed to support it. Triple the damage of monsters (yes, MM3 monsters) and remove resurrection from the game, and you'll be closer.