Roll dem Bones!

[Water Bob]

Surprise is MOOT - both sides are quite aware of the the other.

That's what I was thinking, which is why I made the call the way I did above.

Fighter automatically goes first in initiative order - everybody else rolls.

I don't know about that, though. A bonus (I gave the fighter a +2 nish) seems about right. But automatic? I think about all those times that a bad guy or monster attacks the party. Would I give the baddies auto-nish over the party? I don't think so, even when the circumstances are very close.

 

[Thunderfoot]

And see - I see it as even though everyone is expecting something - a punch in the mouth mid sentence isn't exactly what the other guy bargained for. Which is why I said what I said, but I get your angle, it keeps the number of flatfooted attacks down.

But the first punch is still a surprise attack to me. After that, its anything goes for the two parties (with the room being surprised yet another round), then the room may run, duck or join in (bar BRAWWWWLLLL!!!!) as suits my fancy as DM.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

A bonus (I gave the fighter a +2 nish) seems about right. But automatic? I think about all those times that a bad guy or monster attacks the party. Would I give the baddies auto-nish over the party? I don't think so, even when the circumstances are very close.

Think about it this way: Two or more people are standing around arguing or maybe just staring each other down. The first one to say "I attack" should be the one to ACTUALLY go first. If you then reduce it to a random roll the first one to actually CHOOSE to attack (as opposed to attack in reaction) can easily wind up going last no matter what little bonus you give to his roll.

Yeah, the first one to SAY, "I attack" should be the first one to ACTUALLY attack, not just get a bonus to his roll. Everyone else should be taking actions in RESPONSE to his choice.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

But the first punch is still a surprise attack to me. After that, its anything goes for the two parties (with the room being surprised yet another round), then the room may run, duck or join in (bar BRAWWWWLLLL!!!!) as suits my fancy as DM.

Fine for a house rule, and I wouldn't necessarily have issues with that. But by definition in 3E, surprise is simply awareness of one side of the PRESENCE of the other, and that's all.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

Think about it this way: Two or more people are standing around arguing or maybe just staring each other down. The first one to say "I attack" should be the one to ACTUALLY go first. If you then reduce it to a random roll the first one to actually CHOOSE to attack (as opposed to attack in reaction) can easily wind up going last no matter what little bonus you give to his roll.

I don't see this as a problem, actually. Some people are simply more reactive than others. That's what initiative attempts to model, imho.

Yeah, the first one to SAY, "I attack" should be the first one to ACTUALLY attack, not just get a bonus to his roll. Everyone else should be taking actions in RESPONSE to his choice.

The problem I have with this approach is that it completely bypasses the advantage of things like Improved Initiative, or even simply higher level.

A scene that comes to mind is of a Master training his student. Master says "Hit me", and the two face off. Player of student says to DM "I attack!" So should the student actually hit the Master, just because he decides first to attack? My thought is no. The way I'd expect this to play out is that student decides to attack, but both roll for initiative. Mr. Miyagi is so good (high initiative) that he likely "reads" the student's intention in his eyes before the attack even begins, and can land the Karate Kid flat on his tookus before young cricket knows what hit him.

Or think about a western. At high noon, Sheriff Goode and Black Bart square off in the deserted street. Being the good guy, the sheriff refuses to draw first, relying instead on his quick wits (high intiative). He draws only when the bad guy's player says "I attack!" and Black Bart goes for his gun. At that point, roll intiative to see who actually gets their shot off first. The quicker man-- the one with higher initiative-- is likely to win, though not always.

 

[kitcik]

A scene that comes to mind is of a Master training his student. Master says "Hit me", and the two face off. Player of student says to DM "I attack!" So should the student actually hit the Master, just because he decides first to attack? My thought is no. The way I'd expect this to play out is that student decides to attack, but both roll for initiative. Mr. Miyagi is so good (high initiative) that he likely "reads" the student's intention in his eyes before the attack even begins, and can land the Karate Kid flat on his tookus before young cricket knows what hit him.

Or think about a western. At high noon, Sheriff Goode and Black Bart square off in the deserted street. Being the good guy, the sheriff refuses to draw first, relying instead on his quick wits (high intiative). He draws only when the bad guy's player says "I attack!" and Black Bart goes for his gun. At that point, roll intiative to see who actually gets their shot off first. The quicker man-- the one with higher initiative-- is likely to win, though not always.

I don't see this as being inconsistent with anything that was said. I think there is a difference between a situation where two people square off ("the two face off" / "Goode and Black Bart square off") and a situation where there is a verbal argument. Once they are faced off, the fight has begun and there is no surprise round - roll for init, as you said. In a verbal argument, if someone suddenly turns violent it usually results in a surprise shot, and that shot usually hits. I have seen many heated arguments, and in the few that turned violent, even though the other person might have thought they were ready, the person who turned violent first usually got in a "clean" one (or a dirty one, depending on your outlook).

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

I dont actually see much difference between a formal "square off" and an argument. In both cases the opponents are well-defined, and everyone involved is expecting something to happen at some point. But your point is taken.

I have seen many heated arguments, and in the few that turned violent, even though the other person might have thought they were ready, the person who turned violent first usually got in a "clean" one (or a dirty one, depending on your outlook).

Well, yes. Which is why I'd personally grant an intitative bonus to the first declarer, rather than a full surprise round. That's how it goes from "always" to "usually". That first attacker is likely to land his blow first, but he might be stoopid-drunk, or just way outmatched. If the guy he swings at has superior reflexes or experience (ninja, special ops, a precog, or just by being more sober) it seems to me that superior guy should get a chance to actually get his shot in first, or evade, or whatever? It's a very, very common trope that I think is reasonably well-handled by intiative. Obviously, there are other ways to handle it, but raw intiative alone seems sufficient to me.

But clearly this all boils down to how a DM interprets "preparedness" or "surprise" or "square off" or even "attack". In the end, I won't argue with my DM over it.

 

[Water Bob]

The first one to say "I attack" should be the one to ACTUALLY go first.

I do see your point, and I've gamed that way before. The problems I have are:

1 - You may start to swing, even pre-emptively, but there's always someone out there quicker than you are.

I mean, what if you are normal Joe, and you suddenly haul off and swing, not knowing that you're about to fight a Navy SEAL?

Like a gunfight in the cowboy days, your enemy may be watching, looking for you to make a move, and once you do, you get it before he gets it.

Therefore, the random roll seems to suit the situation better. Give the "I attack" player a bonus on his nish.



2 - As the rule should be one-size-fits-all for monsters, NPCs, as well as PCs, it seems like it would not benefit the players at all if, everything they moved into a dark cavern, the baddies in there, sitting, waiting, in the dark, for the PCs to walk buy, would catch the PCs flat-footed a lot, without the PCs ever rolling dice.

"You walk into the grown-over cavern. You can hear a loud drop of water fall into a pool somewhere in the darkness. It happens every few seconds. As you bend down to strike the tinder box and light a torch, something big and dark separates from the shadows and attacks!"

And..the PCs can roll nish because the thing already attacked.


So, I think its a good idea to always roll nish, unless you're dealing with Surprise and Ambushes, but give modifiers on nish if needed.

 

[Greenfield]

I do see your point, and I've gamed that way before. The problems I have are:

1 - You may start to swing, even pre-emptively, but there's always someone out there quicker than you are.

I mean, what if you are normal Joe, and you suddenly haul off and swing, not knowing that you're about to fight a Navy SEAL?

Then you just got in one final swing before getting your ass kicked. Unless said SEAL was on a "ready action" for you to do something stupid, you'll probably land the punch.

Like a gunfight in the cowboy days, your enemy may be watching, looking for you to make a move, and once you do, you get it before he gets it.

This is called "Ready Action", as in "I ready for him to reach for his weapon." And, in real life, you have to be hellaquick to outdraw the other guy, even if you're waiting for it.

2 - As the rule should be one-size-fits-all for monsters, NPCs, as well as PCs, it seems like it would not benefit the players at all if, everything they moved into a dark cavern, the baddies in there, sitting, waiting, in the dark, for the PCs to walk buy, would catch the PCs flat-footed a lot, without the PCs ever rolling dice.

"You walk into the grown-over cavern. You can hear a loud drop of water fall into a pool somewhere in the darkness. It happens every few seconds. As you bend down to strike the tinder box and light a torch, something big and dark separates from the shadows and attacks!"

This is what the RPG gods invented Spot checks for. If the PCs are scouting, you give them a Spot check as they enter. If they're not really paying attention then they get that same Spot check at -5, for being "distracted". (That's according to the RAW.)

The only time they wouldn't would be if the bad guys had some warning the PCs were coming, so they could ready an action. Even then, you, as DM, need to treat it just the same as if a PC had said "I ready action". That is, you need to consider how long someone can hod a Readied action, and remember that they need to specify what it is they're readying for, and what action they're readying.

Player: "I Ready Action!"
DM: "For what? And what are you readying?"
Player: "Um, I'm going to fire my bow as soon as I see someone enter through that door."
DM: "Okay. I'll presume that you aren't planning to shoot just anybody, since we both know that your Rogue went out to scout, but other than that you're good."

So you need to "state" what your bad guys are readying for, and which trigger finger they're going to twitch when the time comes, even if you're only "stating" it to yourself. If the PCs manage to find some other way in that doesn't trigger the Ready action, well, it doesn't trigger the ready action.

 

[Water Bob]

This is what the RPG gods invented Spot checks for. If the PCs are scouting, you give them a Spot check as they enter. If they're not really paying attention then they get that same Spot check at -5, for being "distracted". (That's according to the RAW.)

OK, so the Spot check succeeds. "You see a big, hairy bug-like thing, but the size of a motorcycle, crawl out of the crack in the wall. It's a spider, and it's just sitting there on the wall."

Player: "OK, we've got our weapons drawn but we..."

GM: "It jumps on you!"

Going by the above, the spider gets auto-nish. It's the same as what the Fighter did to the Jerk, except it's the monster doing it and not the player.

I don't think we want to start giving the spider auto-nish like this. Let's keep rolling it to give the PCs a chance.

And, by that same token, the Fighter, above, has to roll nish too--maybe with a modifier--but still has to roll it.

That's my side of it, anyway.