Roll-playing, is it utterly condemnatory?

[MerricB]

she decided that her best solution was to just start making characters that can end fights long before they get boring for her. If it's going to be a combat-centric game, she sits down and crunches the rules on her own, bounces ideas off the rest of us, and basically does everything in her power to build a character that lets her do "the fun stuff" while at the same time being able to effectively ignore or obliterate any adversary that might dare to take her on.

That's very cool. I approve.

Cheers!

 

[DragonLancer]

My fellow roll-players and I are just going to continue running and playing in roll-playing games because we enjoy it. We will continue to support the gaming industry by buying books and supplements that cater to roll-players.

Thats well and fine. Good on ya. All my comments are just pointing out a disturbing trend towards Roll-Playing. I'd probably be happy if the gaming community was 50/50 between the two camps but since the release of 3rd edition D&D and it seems to have become more 75/25 in favour of Roll-Playing. I put that down to the system supporting it more than previous editions.

 

[rushlight]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with D&D becoming a table-top Neverwinter Nights. If it doesn't work for you, no one is making you do it, so do what works for you. If it works for someone else, you've really got no right to say "You're NOT PLAYING D&D! You're NOT ROLEPLAYING!" to them. You've got no more right to condemn their game, hold the rules in contempt, or see them as somehow inferior. We're all playing a glorified game of cops-n-robbers.

That's my opinion, anyway.

The problem with that, from my perspective, is that the market is now catering to your style - to the complete exclusion of the role-players. That leaves those of us who don't like power-gaming out in the cold. If we're playing cops-n-robbers, then the industry is only producing new products for the robbers. Those of us who want to play cops (or have a nice balance) are left with only two choices:

1) Accept that the hobby we love will no longer be supported commercially - we are left to our own devices.

2) Abandon the hobby for one that does support us.

I don't like either choice.

 

[Henry]

I'd probably be happy if the gaming community was 50/50 between the two camps but since the release of 3rd edition D&D and it seems to have become more 75/25 in favour of Roll-Playing. I put that down to the system supporting it more than previous editions.

I put it down to better communication thanks to the Internet, and people realizing this is the way it's ALWAYS been. The number of people who concentrate predominantly on the personality-building side of things has always been by a 2 to 1 margin or greater; The people who are "gamers" first and foremost but with incidental roleplay making up the majority or at least a plurality, and finally those who make NO effort to roleplay whatsoever at about a percentage equal to the "real" role-players. We, who scour the net, who share GMing tips, history lessons, and baking recipes from the Inn of the Last Home (love Stag on Steel myself), have ALWAYS made up the minority, from what I've seen from local gamers, from gamers in other states, from gamers I've spoken with on the WotC boards, and from conventions I've attended. I firmly believe any changes seen in 3E's release were symptomatic rather than causal.

 

[rushlight]

I think what I said in the thread about Complete Divine really sums up what's bothering me:

I suppose I'm just sick of "crunch". It's an escalation of power, with each new book trying to top the last book. The contents of a book have to be percieved as valuable in order for a player to purchase it, and books with "crunch" relatively the same in power are not usually thought of as valuable. So you have to beef it up a bit...

Also, I'm a DM, and that has alot to do with it too. I feel there's a lack of product that is targeted to helping DMs design fun, challenging, and memorable encounters and campaigns. Something to help get the juices going with that homebrew, or fresh ideas for whatever campaign world you are running.

I'm not talking about just a book of encounters with monster and trap stats. I'd like something that has style. I'm always trying to hit a mood in my games, and that can be difficult - some hints about that would be nice. Ideas on how to avoid the standard cliches would be good, or how to turn them on their ear would be even better. I've been DMing D&D for over ten years - how about something for the DMs who have been around a while from people who have been around even longer? Practical tips and tricks to get players to feel like part of your world would be great! Even after all this time, I still feel like one or two of the players just don't get it. I'd like tips on developing a DM style - something to make the games memorable, not just a string of monster treasures.

I'd like ideas on how to use the mechanics of the game in a more fluid manner - combat always seems to drag on. Tips on plot threading, episodic style, and creating memorable, but not distracting, sub-plots would be awesome. How do other DMs handle NPCs? Data management? Character backstory? How do they deal with the issues of creating characters at higher levels? How do they handle high level games period? What about creating low level games with a real sense of danger? What about preserving a character's "theme" through the levels?

Man, I could go on and on... but I suppose it's just wasting bandwidth. I suppose there just isn't the market size large enough to sell a book like that - targeted to what amounts to one fifth of the D&D market. In reality though, all players would benefit from a tome of such information. Perhaps in a trickle-down theory, it might bring in some fringe gamers who become interested when the other players rave about how cool their game is, but who knows. Anyway, I'm sick of books full of PrCs, feats, spells and items. Every book looks the same to me, just with different little pictures.

 

[Henry]

Man, I could go on and on... but I suppose it's just wasting bandwidth. I suppose there just isn't the market size large enough to sell a book like that - targeted to what amounts to one fifth of the D&D market.

Actually there is - but you have to look outside of WotC's radar to find it. AEG's Toolbox, Gary Gygax's World Builder, AEG's Spycraft game, etc. (Spycraft by the way is a treasure trove of new rules and resources for the GM looking to enhance his roleplay and his skill!) While WotC can't make it profitable, they left it to the guys with the small overhead who could.

 

[Alzrius]

Actually there is - but you have to look outside of WotC's radar to find it. AEG's Toolbox, Gary Gygax's World Builder, AEG's Spycraft game, etc.

To say nothing of the Magical Medieval books.

 

[Henry]

To say nothing of the Magical Medieval books.

Oh, my goodness, slap me with a Bulette! I totally forgot those Ennie Winners!

Magical Medieval Society series from Expeditious Retreat Press - GOGOGO!

 

[ThoughtBubble]

Dragonlancer? Prepare to be jumped.

I’m happy for stories to be as rich and compelling as those of the FF series, but that’s not what I’m saying. Everything about it is big, over the top, and although the games have a detailed story/plot, they are pure and simple a show case for kewl combats and sparklies.

DL? Come over the top with me, the view from up here is remarkable. You can see for miles.

Now, I know I’ll get jumped here, but after all this time someone does have to say it, roll-playing IS wrong in my eyes. It’s not pretentious to say that. D&D was never meant to be played like a computer game. Perhaps its just how the game is evolving, but I see too many people posting on boards across the net who play this way, and I am appalled that its seen as the standard.


Oh, I’ve read the 3.x books and I know there are different styles of play, have no fear. And yes, I do believe that I know which the best of them is. You can call that arrogant or pretentious if you like, but the point remains that the game was not meant to be roll-played, it was meant to be role-played.

The problem is (as I said above) that the roll-playing style has taken a hold and is in effect spoiling the game. My players and I are appalled that the game is slipping into roll-playing. Where’s the fun in playing like that? The designers are simply catering to those who come from the videogame background, who are used to superheroic, superpowerful characters with nothing in the way of real roleplaying. I stand by my view that we need to get away from the roll-playing, powergaming aspect and get back to proper gaming. Yes, that’s my view and I’m sticking to it until someone can proove me otherwise.

Thats well and fine. Good on ya. All my comments are just pointing out a disturbing trend towards Roll-Playing. I'd probably be happy if the gaming community was 50/50 between the two camps but since the release of 3rd edition D&D and it seems to have become more 75/25 in favour of Roll-Playing. I put that down to the system supporting it more than previous editions.

What I find disturbing is that you believe that you're in the minority, but insist that everyone else is doing it wrong.

Anyway, any evidence that I can give you is anecdotal at best (the min-maxers I knew in 2e are still min maxers in 3e, and were min maxers in GURPS too), but I wish you luck in finding people that you can play with, and teaching poeple how to have fun with interacting and interperson dramatics. And if you'd like to have a discussion about that, I'd love to be a part of it.

Have you considered playing a rules light system? Or perhaps completely freeform?

Anyway, as a roll-player, a role player, a videogame player, I have some problems with situations that I feel are inspired by too many videogames, but I find that they tend NOT to be the ones you're having.

 

[DragonLancer]

DL? Come over the top with me, the view from up here is remarkable. You can see for miles.

Hey! I can see my house from here!