Roll20 users; are my impressions right or wrong on this

[Gradine]

#1 and #3 sure seem to imply that racism isn't limited to one race. Pretty much all the definitions I find are pretty much those three. You can have a racist system but the "racism is only related to a system of oppression, not actions or ideas based on bigotry or prejudice" POV is not in line with the regular dictionary definition of the word and how it was usually used until the last 20 years or so.

To be fair, those changes in terminology were largely brought about due to advances in academic cultural studies and academic research into oppression and inequality (particularly in the US). I can see and even support the reasoning behind it, but from a practical standpoint it's a losing cause. The problem is when you start taking words with common definitions and try to use them to define very real phenomena, but it ways that run contrary to the common definition, you start to lose the forest of social science for the trees of semantic arguments.

I mean, once a conversation reaches the point where people start quoting the dictionary, any designs towards mutual understanding of the meaning or message behind the argument is completely and hopelessly lost, is it not?

Once again, I understand that reasoning behind it; racism (or more to the point prejudice) impacts non-white people in the US, particularly from structural and institutional angles, in far greater scope and magnitude than it does white people, in some times such greater scope and magnitude that it would laughable if it weren't so tragic. Same for sexism. The multitudes of evidence to support that is so vast and consistent that nothing short of deliberate ignorance could justify its denial. But tell a group of white men, even ones who might be sympathetic to the cause, that they cannot be victims of racism or sexism? That's a hell of a good way to lose an audience.

And I get the arguments about changing the conversation from one about personal prejudice to large-scale institutional barriers to equitable outcomes, and that's important. But I've been in a lot of conversations, both online and in the real world, that lead with "racism can't impact white people; sexism can't impact men", over at least the span of a decade and a half, and I have never once seen it create more good than harm.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I'm currently using Roll20 for lack of a better option. The VTT I was using before (iTabletop) is dead, but it found it a slightly better option for my needs at the time.

The problem is that I don't really like any of them. I don't really need too much integration. Having some sort of macro systems so people can just click on "Longsword Attack" for their character is nice. Being able to have hp bars and condition icons on tokens is a nice way to track monsters--*if* happened to be using a map. But I run a lot of theater of the mind, and I don't need it to track the game mechanics for me. Especially if I want to house rule, it is more of a hassle than a help.

What I want is the VTT to be an environment that allows me to do the stuff I could do in person. I want to be able to play my own music files to everyone. Roll20 doesn't support that (iTabletop let me do that, and they sounded great). I want to be able to have video chat. I can't get it to work right on Roll20, trying multiple browsers and settings, and neither the forums nor the wiki were very helpful. I want to be able to drag pictures onto the screen and show them to people. Roll20 does let me do that, but when you drag an image onto the screen, no matter the size of it, it automatically shrinks it down to occupy a tiny square and you have to manually resize every single image that you put on the screen. Why in the world does it do that? I already make the image the size I want before I upload it, but on Roll20 I have to look at the image dimensions on my computer so I can manually enter them after I put the file on the map. It's ridiculous.

Roll20 also has some UI problems. Instead of letting the scroll wheel on your mouse zoom in and out--like all my players naturally expect it would--it scrolls the screen up and down. I understand that is the default behavior for a web browser, but they really ought to find a way around that, because it is a major hassle.

There are plenty of good features it has, but it really could use some fixing up before worrying about adding all sorts of bells and whistles on a clunky framework.

And to perhaps explain the main reason why none of the VTTs are all that great--what I want is an virtual table-top play enabler--not a virtual battle map and rules tracker which is what some people do want, and why recommendations for VTTs can fail to meet expectations. We're really dealing with two different product types here, but those who are designing these things haven't actually sufficiently identified this difference and made products explicitly defined as meeting the needs of one of those product types and not the other.

 

[Mageman]

I will never give that company a dollar. I like to support great developers and great people. Fantasy grounds has the best developers of any game or software I have ever used. They are nice will help you out and will fix problems you post to then.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I used R20 for some All Flesh Must Be Eaten, Dungeon Crawl Classics, and Mutants and Masterminds games and it the games always fell apart after a few sessions.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

I tried Roll20. Even subscribed for a month or two iirc. It was....ok. Didn't blow me away, and honestly was too much of a pain in the butt to use (for me, at least). I started with Fantasy Grounds when it was first out waaaaay back when (early 2k...like, 2004 or 5 I think). I have tried a few others, but nothing "feels right" like FG does. It is (was?) a PITA to add/modify your own rulesets for it...I never figured out enough XML to do that...but man o' man, the way it allows a GM to "pre-create" a bajillion contingencies for his/her game is amazing! And, it looks great! When staring at a screen for hours on end playing a game...the GUI *does* have a rather large impact on enjoyment. With FG II, the latest version, it's just so...well, "pleasing to the eyes".

As for Roll20...after reading up on and spending the last hour or so researching the "general ideological leanings/promotions" of Roll20, I don't think I'll be going back. I just don't support that sort of mindset (as it looks to me at this point).

I *highly* recommend anyone looking for a VTT to check out FGII. It may be more costly, but you get what you pay for!

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

As a black man with very racist relatives myself, I have never found the non-dictionary definition of racism to hold water. Racism without power may be ineffectual, but it is still racism.

That said, when PoC seemingly attempt to exclude Caucasians, it is rarely on the grounds of racism. Exhibit 1: the racially segregated (all white) Mardi Gras Krewes Of New Orleans were found guilty of violating the law and were given a choice between integrating or ceasing their public activities. IOW, integrate if you want to continue having parades. Most ceased parading, which led Harry Connick, Jr. to create the Krewe of Orpheus to save the public celebrations.

Shortly thereafter, some Klansmen tried to use this legal precedent to shut down the Krewe of Zulu- the first & easily the largest all-black Krewe. But because Zulu was formed when blacks couldn’t join any of the extent Krewes, its “exclusivity” was not a policy but more a tradition...of whites not wanting to join. The Klansmen who sued were immediately invited to join Zulu as long as they paid their dues and followed the rules.

So, while there may be some bigotry at the root of “No White” or “No Men” group designations, I’d personally need to see more evidence.

And in the interest of transparency, my presumptions about ”No Minority” or “No Women” group designations would be completely opposite. Why? The well-documented historical context such designations have had in this country is why.

 

[Umbran]

The board tends to give pretty broad leeway to political topics as they relate to issues within the gaming field, however, especially when they don't veer into personal attacks.

We try. We are not perfect, but we try.

No, they aren't. Your personal views are a very politicized take on those definitions, though. Keep it off the boards. Thanks.

Hey, [MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION], if you see something that you think might be in violation of the rules, we ask that you report them, rather than get into people's faces and telling them what they can and cannot do. Thanks.

 

[Umbran]

Folks,

If you couldn't tell, this thread has wandered into areas in which people may have some very strong feelings. This means you should be very careful in considering your statements. If you feel yourself getting heated, or brusque, or annoyed at other posters, we recommend you step away from the topic until you can post in a calm, thoughtful, polite manner.

Overall, we expect and require that you be on your best behavior on this topic, and in this thread.

 

[GMMichael]

This site has some serious double standards. I mean, the dwarves on here can be racist, but the humans can't? And don't even get me started on those sexist orcs...

I want to be able to play my own music files to everyone. Roll20 doesn't support that (iTabletop let me do that, and they sounded great). I want to be able to have video chat. I can't get it to work right on Roll20, trying multiple browsers and settings, and neither the forums nor the wiki were very helpful. I want to be able to drag pictures onto the screen and show them to people. Roll20 does let me do that, but when you drag an image onto the screen, no matter the size of it, it automatically shrinks it down to occupy a tiny square and you have to manually resize every single image that you put on the screen. Why in the world does it do that? I already make the image the size I want before I upload it, but on Roll20 I have to look at the image dimensions on my computer so I can manually enter them after I put the file on the map. It's ridiculous.

Music workaround: I post YouTube links in the chat window. Click if you want, maybe you have to hear a commercial, but the music plays.

Can't help you with the video chat. I eschew it by choice, not technicality. I don't want to hear someone in the background screaming about Cheetos and Mountain Dew.

You can show full-size pics to your players by creating them as Handouts, which still utilizes drag-and-drop, I think. You might try removing the grids from your map (since you're using the Theater anyway?) and I think that will eliminate the square-resizing.

Disclaimer: DMMike does not endorse, use, or forgive any violations of ENWorld's ToS. Any resemblance to any violations living, dead, or otherwise, is purely coincidental. Thanks for ninja-ing me, Umbran.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I'm currently using Roll20 for lack of a better option. The VTT I was using before (iTabletop) is dead, but it found it a slightly better option for my needs at the time.

The problem is that I don't really like any of them. I don't really need too much integration. Having some sort of macro systems so people can just click on "Longsword Attack" for their character is nice. Being able to have hp bars and condition icons on tokens is a nice way to track monsters--*if* happened to be using a map. But I run a lot of theater of the mind, and I don't need it to track the game mechanics for me. Especially if I want to house rule, it is more of a hassle than a help.

What I want is the VTT to be an environment that allows me to do the stuff I could do in person. I want to be able to play my own music files to everyone. Roll20 doesn't support that (iTabletop let me do that, and they sounded great). I want to be able to have video chat. I can't get it to work right on Roll20, trying multiple browsers and settings, and neither the forums nor the wiki were very helpful. I want to be able to drag pictures onto the screen and show them to people. Roll20 does let me do that, but when you drag an image onto the screen, no matter the size of it, it automatically shrinks it down to occupy a tiny square and you have to manually resize every single image that you put on the screen. Why in the world does it do that? I already make the image the size I want before I upload it, but on Roll20 I have to look at the image dimensions on my computer so I can manually enter them after I put the file on the map. It's ridiculous.

Roll20 also has some UI problems. Instead of letting the scroll wheel on your mouse zoom in and out--like all my players naturally expect it would--it scrolls the screen up and down. I understand that is the default behavior for a web browser, but they really ought to find a way around that, because it is a major hassle.

There are plenty of good features it has, but it really could use some fixing up before worrying about adding all sorts of bells and whistles on a clunky framework.

And to perhaps explain the main reason why none of the VTTs are all that great--what I want is an virtual table-top play enabler--not a virtual battle map and rules tracker which is what some people do want, and why recommendations for VTTs can fail to meet expectations. We're really dealing with two different product types here, but those who are designing these things haven't actually sufficiently identified this difference and made products explicitly defined as meeting the needs of one of those product types and not the other.

These are excellent points. (There's a workaround for the image size thing, but it takes a bit of prep*.) I think the problem, ie why you don't see the product you want, is that it's not readily monetizable like a VTT with rules integration is. The business case is niche and has no growth past initial offering. Sadly, this means products you want are more unlikely or are poorly developed.

*1. Create a new character sheet, name it -- don't save it yet.
2. Drag your image out and size it how you want.
3. Assign the image as the token for the character sheet and save the sheet.

Now, if you drag the "character" out, it'll drop the correctly sized image. I know, it's kludgy, but it's the best workaround available.