Romans Puzzle! I have the solution! (The Puzzle that killed a campaign)

[Romnipotent]

Just got an email from the DM, and he sounds like a great person. SO no more hating on the DM for making a difficult puzzle. Theres reasons for it existing, and also clues around the room they didn't pick up.

"As for the riddle, I made it myself. And, yeah, it was too hard. My mistake. But there were other ways around it in the pile of treasure if they had looked in it. Both clues and magic to pass the door. I was again disappointed when they didn't check. I guess I warned them too much about how hard the temple was and they had given up."

As far as I recall roman said the treasure was an illusion but that was it... Didn't look into the imaginary pile...

Below is the email I received, as the DM isn't a registered user my email address gave him something to use for contacting us.

[sblock]
Hey,

Sorry. I'm the bad DM. Don't have membership on the
forum and your email was handy when I scanned through
the forum.

I had no idea that I had so many people up in arms! I
though Roman was joking about the 10,000 posts.
Really who cares about my homebrew campaign with 7-10
players?

Anyways, I feel really bad about the whole thing. I
really thought that my players could solve it. They
have solved everything with ease before. I was really

disappointed because I felt they didn't really spend
any time on solving it or searching for clues. I
guess I just though they were tired of my campaign.
It had been a year after all and others wanted to run
stuff.

They first came upon the riddle at the end of a
session. Yeah they looked at it but it wasn't for
hours or 'a whole session'... maybe 15-20 minutes.
And they were tired at the end of the game because
there had been TONS of combat.

So I called it there and said we'd give it a shot next
week. I asked another player if he would be willing
to run something, just in case.

Next week rolled around and some (like Roman) looked
at the puzzle but most just rolled characters for the
next campaign. So I rolled too, 'cause it looked
like the majority were tired of my campaign.

We had a lot of fun over the year and I was
disappointed, especially since I had so much more
planned, but it seemed to be what people wanted.
<shrug>

As for the riddle, I made it myself. And, yeah, it
was too hard. My mistake. But there were other ways
around it in the pile of treasure if they had looked
in it. Both clues and magic to pass the door. I was
again disappointed when they didn't check. I guess I
warned them too much about how hard the temple was and
they had given up.

The answer:
How to explain... There are 3 'areas' of each shape.
If you count the number of shapes in the area you will
find that one is all even (10,20,30?), one all
odd(15,21,33?), and one all prime(17,29,?).

Ok, in hindsight it is almost impossible without the
clue, but I really do have multiple math geniuses in
my playing group and I thought they would get it. Or
at least search for more information! (As for the bad
grammar, it's my fault. I only have so much time to
plan each week and I was in a rush.)

For the blanks, there is a section of two which I
hoped would be prime (but would have accepted even in
a pinch) and then a section of eight for even and a
section of 25? for odd. Shrug, my bad.

Bad DM? Probably. But (i think) we had a ton of fun
over the year for the most part. And really I was
disappointed with their efforts at the end.

As for using the puzzle again... I was going to. Not
in this form but make it much smaller and try just
evens and odds.

In the end, I'm really sorry that I used this puzzle
at a time when they felt like there was no other
options. But that's what happened and then didn't
take any of the other options out. What am I suppose
to do? Keep the majority in a campaign they don't
want to be in?

Feel free to post the email or just the solution in
the forum.

Thanks to all those that tried not to leap to
conclusions.

Sorry for the bad grammar, but it's late and I don't
really care.

Best of luck in your games.

PS: If you have Roman's email can you give this to
him? Otherwise I'll give him the answer next time I
see him.
[/sblock]

Well... its over! I said I'd get the answer! now, what on earth does it mean

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Something is very wrong if a puzzle destroys a campaign, in fact I don't think a puzzle can destroy a campaign. I would look elsewhere for the answer, particularly at all the players involved.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Now I would like to see the clues they missed, because Romans' DM is right, it is impossible without the clues. I used Mark's nice color diagram of the puzzles and here is what I came up with:

Circles:
Upper Left: 30 - open slot for one or two more
Center: 19 - you could add as many as 33 more around this group
Right: 13 - enclosed area unless the "group" could extend in a diagonal to the lower left.



Arrows:
Upper area: 29 - completely enclosed area
Lower left: 20 - open slots for one or two more depending upon whether you add one or two circles to the upper left group of those
Lower right: 10 - space for up to 25 more to form a continuous group

Triangles: Heck you can add triangles to make only two groups
Lower left: 15
Lower right: 33
Upper right: 21 - up to 25 more

There is no way to understand the proper configuration without further clues - even with the "answer" provided.

Of course it was exactly as I suspected: there was more to this story than we heard, and than Roman knew and could convey to all of us - including apparently the ability to bypass this area without solving the puzzle.

 

[Dagger75]

Well I can sleep now. Thanks

 

[PaulGreystoke]

Now I would like to see the clues they missed, because Romans' DM is right, it is impossible without the clues. I used Mark's nice color diagram of the puzzles and here is what I came up with:

Circles:
Upper Left: 30 - open slot for one or two more

Arrows:
Upper area: 29 - completely enclosed area

This was definitely unsolvable for us on the boards. The diagram Roman gave us (of which Mark made the nice color version) doesn't fit the solution provided by the DM. The count on the upper left section of circles should have been 29, while the count on the upper area of arrows should have been 30. Then the count of the circle areas would have been 29/19/13 (obviously odd & also prime) & the count on the arrows would have been 30/20/10 (obviously even) with the count on the triangles being 33/21/15 (obviously odd). Then recognizing that the count on the blanks was 25/8/2 could be more obviously matched up to the existing groups.

But the version of the puzzle we saw had counts of the following:
circles - 30/19/13
arrows - 29/20/10
triangles - 33/21/15
blanks - 25/8/2
With no pattern in the counts, there was no way for us to solve this puzzle.

 

[Gorrstagg]

Alright we've got the answer... yaaa...

Thanks to the Romnipotent. And thanks to Romans DM. (See I'm not as unhappy with this anymore as I was back then.. though I honestly admit.. I really wanted to hear from the DM on his perspective of the situation..)

Here's what I really see.. The DM ran his adventure like normal, he noticed some people were chomping at the bit to DM.. and thought it was because his campaign wasn't fun anymore.

So possibly, this whole problem developed simply out of a problem with communication. With the players and the DM.

The funny thing is.. I still think that other campaign is entirely salvagable. Simply from the perspective of the DM wanting to be a player for a little while. But that's.. another story.

 

[LeifVignirsson]

Well, at least it is over and we have a solution... Antsy players and a DM getting crossed signals. I have seen that happen, I have been there on both sides. I guess it just depends on each group, more than likely. At least this thing won't be eating away at my brain anymore and thanks to the DM who stood up and gave the answer even if it meant that it might ruin a part of his campaign. I know that it is tough, but sometimes you have to give a secret or two in magic... or something...

 

[BSF]

Most problems originate from bad communication. Sounds like this was one of them. *sigh* I am glad to have another side of the story. I can see where the DM would feel that the players were looking for a change of venue instead. It's a shame really. Thanks for proxy posting the DM's response Romnipotent!

 

[Umbran]

Just got an email from the DM, and he sounds like a great person. SO no more hating on the DM for making a difficult puzzle.

Never had a hate on for him making a difficult puzzle. His real error wasn't in the puzzle, but in the fact that it was the one and only way forward. The next error was depending upon the players solving it, and not considering having the characters solve it - if the characters cannot do things the players cannot do, why play the game?

Basic adventure design philosphy - avoid the single-solution scenario. Go ahead and use tough puzzles if your plaeyrs like them. But be prepared for them to fail.

 

[Templeton580]

Color me underwhelmed, but at least the DM sounds like a stand-up guy.