RPGing and imagination: a fundamental point

For the sake of argument, say it were conceded by all that such blocking is happening. What would come next?
So you have been a bit sceptical about the difference between conflict and task resolution. And one definition that has been offered is that in task resolution the success can be blocked by the secret myth. But if in conflict resolution the attempt can be blocked by secret myth before the roll is even made, is that really so different? After all, then we are just quibbling about the timing of the blocking.

Personally I feel that the conflict resolution feels clearly most different from the task resolution when no such blocking is happening, when the conflict resolution roll can dictate the myth, like the safe opening success determining that the papers are there. Whether this is possible or not feels to me like a fundamental difference, timing of blocking due the myth not so much.

But sure, the different ways of blocking will still result different feel and affect how the players approach the game, but those to me seem more like stylistic rather than substantive differences. Which is not to say that the merits of these different approaches are not worth pondering.
 

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Right. So there actually is an an orc shows up roll, just like there is make a wizard's tower show up roll. With monster-wise or some such the player could make an orc to show up. "I recall the Blue Skull orcs prey upon travellers in these woods..."
And your action declaration already includes fictional positioning: that there are travellers; that there is a woods.

That is not an "Orc showing up roll". It is an action, grounded in fictional position. That is what produces the material for setting an obstacle, and for establishing consequences (particularly of a failure).

Which means that the player action declarations are limited in their subject matter by the secret myth.
I don't understand why you are ignoring the GM's role in actively revealing the town in play. The fictional position for the action declaration will be underpinned by what the GM has actively revealed.

You seem to be looking at this through the lens of CoC; where the GM "hoards"/"gatekeeps" information. But that's not the right lens.
 

So you have been a bit sceptical about the difference between conflict and task resolution. And one definition that has been offered is that in task resolution the success can be blocked by the secret myth. But if in conflict resolution the attempt can be blocked by secret myth before the roll is even made, is that really so different? After all, then we are just quibbling about the timing of the blocking.

Personally I feel that the conflict resolution feels clearly most different from the task resolution when no such blocking is happening, when the conflict resolution roll can dictate the myth, like the safe opening success determining that the papers are there. Whether this is possible or not feels to me like a fundamental difference, timing of blocking due the myth not so much.
Is this feeling based on actual play experience?

Is the "blocking" you refer to based on actual play experience?

Or is this more "logical deduction"?
 

And that is limiting the action declaration based on secret myth!
Right, if the secret backstory is actively revealed - ‘the dirt is in the safe’ being that secret backstory (laying aside questions of how the players can know this for a fact without having checked the safe - an interesting discussion in its own right).

So the player knows the dirt is in the safe, so then if the dirt ends up not being in the safe the revealed myth has been negated.

But maybe the revealed myth is - ‘the incriminating evidence is usually in the safe but might not be’. If this is the case then there’s no myth about the documents actual location to violate. This is more the case of what I suspect @pemerton has in mind. The only issue is that it doesn’t address the situation we are discussing where the myth about the documents precise location has been revealed.
 

So you have been a bit sceptical about the difference between conflict and task resolution. And one definition that has been offered is that in task resolution the success can be blocked by the secret myth. But if in conflict resolution the attempt can be blocked by secret myth before the roll is even made, is that really so different? After all, then we are just quibbling about the timing of the blocking.
A few posts back I got to what I felt were fair definitions of each. I probably differ from some others in counting immediate and parsimonious intent resolution into CR. No blurred lines.

The timing question, I am not sure of. Along with blocking prior to roll, there's also the effects blocked by roll - what I've called gatekeeping - such as where apparent TR gatekeeps CR.

Perhaps that's what @Pedantic Is thinking of in questioning over-analysis of single instances of resolution. And you can obviously set up 4e SCs so that a chain of TRs results in CR.

If your intuitions are in that direction then one has to be careful of detaching resolution from its context. "It only works because of P" "Sure, but in context, always P".

Personally I feel that the conflict resolution feels clearly most different from the task resolution when no such blocking is happening, when the conflict resolution roll can dictate the myth, like the safe opening success determining that the papers are there. Whether this is possible or not feels to me like a fundamental difference, timing of blocking due the myth not so much.
Agreed, that's clearest. Albeit, I'm not wholly certain we should expect these phenomenon to be clear in every case. It often seems to me that we can say things about them from various perspectives that will have utility to certain ends, while remaining unable to be definitive from all perspectives in view of all ends.

But sure, the different ways of blocking will still result different feel and affect how the players approach the game, but those to me seem more like stylistic rather than substantive differences. Which is not to say that the merits of these different approaches are not worth pondering.
That would depend a great deal on what one counts substantive. That's the elusive thing with play. It's optional nature makes it very hard to say this or that has most substance. It's down to what players invest with meaning.
 

And your action declaration already includes fictional positioning: that there are travellers; that there is a woods.

That is not an "Orc showing up roll". It is an action, grounded in fictional position. That is what produces the material for setting an obstacle, and for establishing consequences (particularly of a failure).
One consequence of the immeasurable nature and numberless parameters of imagination - an essential component of RPG - is that there isn't a "fictional position that definitively and from all perspectives legitimates an orcs-show-up declaration." It can always seem to someone to rely on forcing at some point. That is grounded only by fiat, whether before or in the moment.
 

And your action declaration already includes fictional positioning: that there are travellers; that there is a woods.
So what? And of course similar statement could have been made about any terrain the player wishes the orcs to appear in. These are meaningless obfuscatory trivialities.

That is not an "Orc showing up roll". It is an action, grounded in fictional position. That is what produces the material for setting an obstacle, and for establishing consequences (particularly of a failure).
All those things do not make it not an "orc showing up roll." That is what it does, that is what is happening. I really don't understand why you constantly need to keep obfuscating what is actually going on.

I don't understand why you are ignoring the GM's role in actively revealing the town in play. The fictional position for the action declaration will be underpinned by what the GM has actively revealed.
That is always the case, no action declaration will occur in a vacuum.

You seem to be looking at this through the lens of CoC; where the GM "hoards"/"gatekeeps" information. But that's not the right lens.
I am not. But I am looking it trough the lens where existence of secret information is a possibility, because that is what the contention is about! Countering it with "but what if there is no secret information" is meaningless as that is not the case we are discussing.

Is this feeling based on actual play experience?

Is the "blocking" you refer to based on actual play experience?

Or is this more "logical deduction"?
You have made several examples where it is happening, you just fail to recognise it because you for some reason refuse to examine what is actually going on in these examples.
 

You've raised objections that I believe are interesting, to which the answer lies in the nature of play itself.

Upthread you raised a concern with GM scaling down player declarations. Can player notwithstanding what GM says, insist upon their scaled up declaration? If not, then GM has said "No". One may believe that norms in force at the table will lead players to give, in such confrontations, but it's still "No - you can't declare what you wanted to declare"... or it's "Yes, let's proceed with your scaled-up declaration even though it would work better scaled down!" A connected observation is that players as often say "No" to themselves.

It's an obvious glitch in CR - commented on by multiple folk - that I could declare "punch the Earth in half" and if we aren't resolving my performance - how strong my punch is - then we could end up with a result that doesn't feel legitimate. I've already discussed some practices commonly used to fix that. And it is right to point out that these resolution methods do not exist in isolation: they're part of a web of practices that work together. One can to an extent analyse a single component of an Internal Combustion Engine, but one cannot complain too much of fault if the action of said component is regulated by another component leading to collective functionality.

Which leads to the solution that I think you find unsatisfactory. The playful negotiation rarely if ever leads to "I discover that X is Y". It's overwhelmingly more likely to land on "What's the deal with X, is it Y?" Logically, yes - you are right. There are all kinds of legitimation failures possible in CR. Your example of asserting a fact contrary to those already settled is just one of them. Picture "I know we said the sky is blue, but I discover it is pink." Roll... is the sky still blue? "I know we said Brother Jo is wearing a linen shirt and heavy oilcloth coat, but I discover he's standing at the pulpit stark naked." Roll... is Brother Jo naked?

Play occurs because players adopt the appropriate lusory-attitudes for that play. The cases you are speaking of are far more extreme than you might be picturing. According to Huizinga, they are those of the "spoilsport", who shatters the magic circle by abandoning the attitudes that sustain play.
There are many mechanisms which exist in Narrativist systems which obviate all of the above concerns, at least in the better systems. All of those issues were addressed through discussion and iteration of design in the discussions of Sorcerer, The Forge posts, and various blogs, mostly in the early '00s. At this point it is well-trodden ground!

So, we discussed the role of fiction, for example in DitV. It isn't there to serve as a menu of things that players must discover in order to navigate some existing plot. There IS no plot, and the fiction is simply revealed in a narratively appropriate way. So, sure, if you don't go to the Mayor's Office you may not see the safe, and maybe you thus don't have the opportunity to get the papers, but (demonic forces aside) its not the focus of play to test your ability to crack open safes. That fact isn't revealed simply because there's no narrative logic leading to its revelation. Presumably the character went somewhere else, and revealed some other facet of the highly pregnant with conflict potential situation! Very soon they will cross paths with NPCs who will oppose the PCs goal, purging the town of its evil influence. Conflicts will involve convincing people, maybe intimidating them, maybe spiritual and physical struggle, etc. Those things are not part of any secret backstory, and whatever information is required to bring them forward and resolve them will be presented as required. Thus there is no potentiality for 'facts to get in the way' of intent.

In terms of things like 'punch the Earth in half' we have basic garden variety solutions to this problem that have existed since the first days of Dave Arneson's game! The rules don't allow for such actions! In DitV if I stated that my character's desire is to march down to the Governor's Residence and seize power the GM will simply present me with obstacles which my character is entirely incapable of coping! This is just basic narrative integrity and gamist game integrity stuff, it is the least possible concern! I'd note that the 'scale down' advice in DitV, from the sound of it, isn't really so much concerned with THAT as it is with the more nebulous kind of "well, we just cut to the heart of the conflict and toss a few dice." sort of issue. Since intent type resolution systems don't really INHERENTLY present a 'scale' this can be a concern. I mean, you could imagine the same sort of question in a 4e campaign "Hey, why don't we just have a skill challenge to decide if the RQ takes over the whole Lattice of Heaven or not?" I mean, you COULD, the rules don't really put a limit on the stakes of an SC... That's where one of the GM's main tasks in Narrativist play comes in. Note how it is approached in AW/DW, moves only have limited scope and everything that has stakes will trigger SOME move pretty quickly, so there's no way to trigger "I win the game" in one shot! Beyond that AW's strongly articulated principles/agenda means the GM shouldn't want that play, and has the power to make moves which will effectively 'scale down'. It is just not an issue in any actual Narrativist play I am aware of.

As for the idea that any of the above amounts to 'GM Control' or 'saying no', nonsense (and you mention lusory attitude, which I think is sufficient to cover this, so I think we agree here). The rules of the game are plain and agreed prior to play, as is the premise, agenda, and principles/techniques. While it may be too much to ask that every player is fully cognizant of every implication of what they're agreeing to play, it is pretty clear that a basic agreement on the satisfactory nature of the 'rules of the game' is a precursor to success. Nor is it any more 'GM control' in AW to say you can't punch the Earth in half, than it is to say in D&D you can't just walk through the walls of the dungeon and see every secret door. This is all just part of how the game works.

So, frankly, I don't see any of @Crimson Longinus objections as being really substantive. I will grant that, if you have only understood RPGs from the Trad D&D point of view, then some of these may be questions you will ask, but the answers exist and are well-practiced.
 


So what? And of course similar statement could have been made about any terrain the player wishes the orcs to appear in. These are meaningless obfuscatory trivialities.


All those things do not make it not an "orc showing up roll." That is what it does, that is what is happening. I really don't understand why you constantly need to keep obfuscating what is actually going on.


That is always the case, no action declaration will occur in a vacuum.


I am not. But I am looking it trough the lens where existence of secret information is a possibility, because that is what the contention is about! Countering it with "but what if there is no secret information" is meaningless as that is not the case we are discussing.


You have made several examples where it is happening, you just fail to recognise it because you for some reason refuse to examine what is actually going on in these examples.
@pemerton noted that you were thinking in the mindset of 'hoarding information', and here you are actually thinking in that very mindset! There's no problem with the existence of hidden information in Narrativist play because there IS NO hidden information in narrativist play! There may be some things which are temporarily obscured, behind the trees so to speak, but it isn't a secret, it is simply not within the scope of the current scene, at least not yet. In these systems where such is possible (DitV apparently, certainly Apocalypse World) intent is not focused on finding out things. It is focused on adjudicating the clash of wills between different characters (and possibly character might sometimes be taken in the looser sense), or even between a character and herself.

So, whenever some information about the state of the fiction is relevant to play, the players will discover it. No Myth is thus, as pointed out, a very convenient technique in these games, one that AW leverages, as it clearly allows for whatever fiction to be brought into play which will meet the needs of play. High Myth does work though, you simply have to make sure you are not being trapped into 'trad thinking' about information. The goal in this High Myth play is to directly address the premise of play, not to root about in safes and such, though that may be the way the narrative is described.

Fictional position obviously will exist in all these games (even Toon has it). It WILL constrain the players AND the GM to whatever extent facts have been established. That's just the nature of all RPG games, and its not 'meaningless triviality', it is in fact what gives play its shape and meaning!
 

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