RPGing via Billy Bragg?

[pemerton]

This thread has two inspirations:

@chaochou's "cultural influences" thread: Cultural influences in roleplaying

A stanza in the Billy Bragg song "Island of Long Return" that I was listening to as I started this thread:

I never thought that I would be
Fighting fascists in the Southern Sea
Saw one today and in his hand
Was a weapon that was made in Birmingham​

The problem of how to make RPGing thematically weighty in moral, or personal, terms has largely been solved: DitV, Burning Wheel, Apocalypse World are just some of many examples.

But what about social weight? Over the Edge is one I can think of, but its social is surreal or kind-of magically realist; what about social realism? What would the right system be? I don't know BitD/FitD well enough - could it do it?

 

[Hriston]

XP given for the song reference (the title of which is "Island of No Return") and because my friend in jr. high and high school who introduced me to Billy Bragg's music was also someone with whom I did some non-D&D RPGing, ETA: including a Western genre RPG I can't remember the name of but which might have been "Wild West" by FGU.

As for social realism, I don't think my RPGing has ever really touched upon this as my characters have never been consciously working class. In a recent game of D&D I was running, for example, there was a PC with the Urchin background, so of the lowest social order, and although the player had chosen personal characteristics that expressed solidarity with the other "street kids" and hatred and contempt for the wealthy, and although I was presenting some conflict in the form of a rakshasa lord posing as a philanthropist whose plans included luring street kids into fake shelters, I didn't anticipate this conflict developing as any kind of critique of the power structures present in the setting. It might have, depending on the interests of the players, but the game ended before this particular thread could be explored very much.

 

[prabe]

I swear I'm not trying to turn this into an argument about whether system matters--and I see what you're saying about a game having mechanics that lend themselves to the kind of social weight and social realism you're talking about--but it seems to me, based on some experience, that this is likely to be as much about the people at the table and the situations that arise in play as it is about the mechanics of the game itself. I had a D&D party get involved in a labor dispute, for instance.

 

[Haiku Elvis]

I backed the Kickstarter for Misspent youth (tag line - fall in love, not in line.) Which is all about fighting the power and making social change. I won't get my grubby hands on it for a few months so I can't tell you more at this time.

Revolution comes to the Kingdom is a game about fighting a cold war era revolution in an isolated kingdom with a side order of curing it of mystical sins by having a mini dungeon crawl at the end of each stage. You can be the government or the rebels and can choose what the two sides represent so you can make it more social/political or more abstract.
It's creator is Tom from the Fear of a Black Dragon podcast. The player's guide is pwyw on Drive thru.

 

[pemerton]

XP given for the song reference (the title of which is "Island of No Return")

I don't know what was going through my fingers with that typo!

I swear I'm not trying to turn this into an argument about whether system matters--and I see what you're saying about a game having mechanics that lend themselves to the kind of social weight and social realism you're talking about--but it seems to me, based on some experience, that this is likely to be as much about the people at the table and the situations that arise in play as it is about the mechanics of the game itself. I had a D&D party get involved in a labor dispute, for instance.

The first system I actually thought of when writing the OP was Cthulhu Dark, but the problem with that system is that the source of social ills will, at least to some extent, end up being supernatural/extra-human. I would have a similar worry about D&D; another worry about D&D is that resolution of social ills might tend to be supernatural (miracles performed by clerics, etc).

The technical problems I'm thinking of are how to express the weight of social structures in framing and resolution and perhaps how to perform actions which take as their objects social relations.

I'll give (what I hope is) an illustration of my thinking here:

A few years ago I found Battleship Potemkin on sale at a local DVD shop and picked it up, I'd never watched it before. SPOILERS FOLLOW: At the climax of the film, the mutineers/revolutionaries sail their vessel straight towards a line of Russian warships. Watching this, I was anxious as to how they would survive this and/or defeat their opponents - but my anxiety revealed the weight of ideology on me! - as I hadn't anticipated the actual resolution, which is that, by power of their example and the flying of the red flag, the sailors on the Potemkin lead the sailors on the other vessels to join them in solidarity, cheering as the Potemkin sails between their lines.

Many RPGs have mechanics for oratory, convincing a crowd, etc. But I'm not sure how one would give these the particular teeth or edge that would toggle them from either cynical or romantic, to social realism of some or other form.

 

[hawkeyefan]

My recently ended Spire campaign had some social weight to it. The setting and the premise of the game certainly put it on the menu, so to speak… you play drow living as second class citizens beneath the rule of high elves… but you can kind of lean into or away from it as desired. My players leaned into it.

 

[pemerton]

My recently ended Spire campaign had some social weight to it. The setting and the premise of the game certainly put it on the menu, so to speak… you play drow living as second class citizens beneath the rule of high elves… but you can kind of lean into or away from it as desired. My players leaned into it.

So would this be social realism by way of fantasy metaphor?

Animal Farm the RPG?

 

[prabe]

So would this be social realism by way of fantasy metaphor?

Animal Farm the RPG?

All are created equal, but some are created more equal than others.

 

[niklinna]

All are created equal, but some are created more equal than others.

And some are tastier than others. (Said the vegetarian and former vegan.)

Edit: Fixed a typo.

 

[Campbell]

Blades in the Dark has some sneaky social realism built in. When you start out you have nothing except obligations to the factions who back you and threats from other factions seeking to step on your necks. Entanglements almost always feels the world put you under it's bootheel. You get rewarded for punching up. Your crew is pretty much just you. Anything that threatens you like threatens the player characters directly.

Then something kind of weird happens as you reach the middle game (Tier 2-3). You have some money and probably some trauma. You're not doing this crime thing to survive anymore. You have taken things from other factions. Made enemies, but those enemies might weaker now and you are stronger. You either let conflicts linger, let your enemies nip at your heels or you step on their necks. Now that your crew is larger often times entanglements don't hit you directly, but someone who works for you. You might have to discipline people who work for you, maybe even let them go to jail for the Crew.

It also becomes harder to punch up. Now you have to give out after the really big players. Take them down. Deal with smaller Crews trying to take a piece of what you own. Maybe deal with some of their powerful friends. The game really builds in the cycle of how in fighting your way to the top you end up in a position where you might be the ones holding down smaller gangs just trying to make it.

In our current game the Wraiths, a gang of thieves who had it out for us at the start of play for taking our secret lair location away from them, threatened the financial interests of my character's noble friend. So we set to start threatening their financial interests. We took over their cover business by organizing a strike against one of their allies to show the Wraiths couldn't protect them. This has led them losing Tier while ours has grown. Now where once we were punching up now we are punching down on them, still caught up in gang warfare which is hurting our business interests (revenue generating claims only produce half of what they normally do when you are at war). Now to extricate ourselves from this situation we have to either punch them all the way down or do something for them that raises our rep.