[RttToEE]Does anyone ever wonder...

[Celtavian]

what in the nine hells Monte Cook was thinking when he wrote up RttToEE? The spell DC's on the higher level clerics are as insane as the clerics themselves are mad.

How does he expect PC's to be able to save against DC 25 or so Disintegrate and Death effects when he has handed out a crappy supply of low level magic?

RttToEE does not seem like it was play tested at all. It just seems like something he thought up because he thought it would be cool.

The Madness domain given to the clerics of Tharizdun hardly has any negative effect on the priests.

I would love to see if this module was play-tested. Personally, I don't think it was play-tested. I have no idea how a play tester can view a DC 20 plus spell level saves is anywhere near a balanced and fair encounter. Utter BS.

This module has killed so many characters its not even fun anymore. Its more like a chore we feel we have to finish because we started it. I have no idea why Monte Cook would feel this module would be fun when it kills so many characters as often as it does.

Really, really pissed off player right now. Friggin just watched half our party die for the 3rd time as they try to save against highly improbably DC's.

 

[Zappo]

How does he expect PC's to be able to save against DC 25 or so Disintegrate and Death effects when he has handed out a crappy supply of low level magic?

He doesn't. That adventure is supposed to be very lethal and require exceptional cunning from the players just to be completed - let alone survived.

 

[Celtavian]

re

Exceptional Cunning? We would have to kill everything before they had a chance to cast spells.

The module is designed as a player killer, pure and simple. Either I have a crappy DM or I can see no means by which we could have possibly avoided getting hit by a barrage of high DC insta-death spells.

I will never go through this module again. I friggin hate it at this point. I cannot believe how powerful clerics are with the madness domain.

 

[hong]

Re: re

Exceptional Cunning? We would have to kill everything before they had a chance to cast spells.

Exactly. Surely you should be aware by now of the golden rule: take out the spellcasters first.

Here's a hint: readying missile attacks against spellcasters works wonders.

 

[HellHound]

With only a few exceptions, our experienced party found the module not as tough as many claim. We have over 50 years of experience in our team, I might add, but fatalities were restricted to the moathouse and the final run into the Temple itself.

Everyone knows you just ignore the non-spellcasting monsters. Run right past them, take the Attacks of Opportunity, and squish the spellcasters.

 

[Celtavian]

Re

I have been gaming many years myself.

Explain to me how you hit an AC of 31 or so with missile weapons with no archer? How do you bypass SR of 27 easily?

Sounds to me like some folks DM's ran the module kind of soft. Hedrack has a huge DC and some minions that make running by very difficult.

For example, how did your experienced party run by the Elder Earth Elemental or the Huge Red Dragon while avoiding attacks of opportunity?

How did your party easily get past the Forbiddance when Hedrack is standing behind it casting a barrage of spells when you know you have to enter the temple?

Our DM concentrated Hedrack's forces in the Temple Area. Did your DM just wait for you to find Hedrack hanging in his room?

We were hammered. The only thing that saved us from dying from the Elder Earth elemental was a Hold Monster spell.

I would love to hear your DM's tactics. Our DM was ruthless. The Temple foes concentrated forces often. We are friggin fighting the first and third at the same time right now. It is a frigging nightmare.

 

[hong]

Re: Re

I have been gaming many years myself.

In which case, you should know that a save DC of 25 for a disintegrate is par for the course, for a minmaxed spellcaster.

10
+5 Int 20
+4 Greater Spell Focus
+6 spell level
----
25

You've said before that you like playing minmaxed spellcasters, so don't complain if the other side does the same.

Explain to me how you hit an AC of 31 or so with missile weapons with no archer?

Get yourselves an archer.

Dispel magic to strip his haste, magic vestment, shield, and whatnot.

Flank him and use aid another if necessary.

How do you bypass SR of 27 easily?

Hit him with a sword.

 

[Piratecat]

Were your characters lower level than recommended?

 

[Ssendam69]

Hit him with a sword.

Easier said than done. 32 AC doesn't hit as easy as you might think. Not to mention, many of the clerics in the RttToEE utillize Forbiddance to max effect, so getting into melee with them is not always possible. Jumping into melee with high level clerics such as the ones in this module is not always the best option anyways as they can do all sorts of nice things to you, like Harm and inflict; not to mention they can also use Divine Power and slug it out with you toe to toe, blow for blow.

I can think of a counter for every single tactic you have posted, hong. It's not as cut and dry as you lay it out. You are also not taking into consideration the rolls. Rolls make you, rolls break you.

This isn't an easy module by any stretch of the imagination. I should know, I am in the process of running it. Whoever says that they had a cake walk, I really have to question as to how merciful or how tactless the DM ran the adventure. I guess you could get really lucky. The level of characters would also be a consideration, as is the type of characters. I suppose a group of characters who were higher than reccomended could easily shred through it, but I have seen a group of 9 characters (cohort and henchman included) struggle with this module.

The group I am running has experienced several deaths during the course of this adventure. Some were raised/ressed, others remained dead and had to be replaced.

 

[hong]

Were your characters lower level than recommended?

Hee hee. I still remember the first time we bumped into ol' Hedrack. We'd already suffered one casualty after getting into the Outer Fane. However that was the player who seems to lose a PC every other session, no matter what, so we didn't think much of it. We were busy ripping up a room full of weird stuff when the door was thrown open and a massive dire bear (first time we'd seen one of these beasties) charged in.

Round 1:

Bear knocks the rogue down to half hp and grabs him (with a grapple check of +30 or something, it was a foregone conclusion).

Archer readies attack on Hedrack, and his spell gets disrupted as a result. We learn later it was a blade barrier (and we were barely 10th-11th level!)

Tank fighter charges Hedrack and misses completely on account of H's super buffed AC.

Wizard tries dispel on H, fails completely on account of H's super high caster level (14th) and suboptimally minmaxed PC design (he took 2 levels of rogue, the fool!).

Round 2:

Fighter and blade dancer (me) lay into Hedrack again, and land something like one hit out of 4 attacks.

Archer suffers a rush of blood to the head, unleashes a full attack on H, and actually HITS TWICE!

H doesn't like this, and unleashes aforementioned disintegrate w/save DC 25 on archer. Archer turns into little pile of ash. Players start pooping their pants.

Dire bear chews up rogue very nicely. Rogue wisely plays dead. DM takes pity on player, has bear drop him to go for someone else.

Round 3:

H is ganged up on by 3 PCs: fighter, blade dancer, rogue. Gets hit a couple more times out of ~6-8 attacks. Decides he doesn't like the odds, and uses word of recall to get the hell out of Dodge, leaving his bear to clean up.

Practically none of us managed to damage the bear on account of it being fiendish, and having 10/+3 DR. It chewed up and spat out a couple more PCs, before the rogue took it down with improved invis and sneak attacks.

We were sh*tting ourselves during that encounter, but cor, it was fun.