Rule Option: Banshee Wail

[AntiStateQuixote]

In previous versions of Dungeons and Dragons the wail of a banshee was deadly.

In 4e (following the "no save or die" unwritten rule) it's not so.

I don't like that.

Proposed banshee wail power (for level 12 controller):

Standard Action

Banshee Wail (fear, necrotic) Encounter
Attack: close burst 10 (targets living creatures); +15 vs. Will
Hit: target loses a healing surge and the target is immobilized (save ends)

First failed saving throw: target loses a healing surge and the target is unconscious (save ends)

Second failed saving throw: the target dies​

Miss: target is slowed (save ends)
Effect: Creates a zone in the burst that lasts until the end of the Banshee's next turn. Any creature that ends its turn in the zone loses a healing surge. The Banshee may sustain the zone as a standard action.


Special: a target with no healing surges available instead loses hit points equal to its surge value.

Please critique.

 

[Kynn]

In previous versions of Dungeons and Dragons the wail of a banshee was deadly.

In 4e (following the "no save or die" unwritten rule) it's not so.

I don't like that.

Please critique.

If you want "save or die" in your game, then why not just make it a save-or-die effect?

 

[Quickleaf]

Looks good and vicious. I'd suggest nixing the "second failed save" part and default to the normal death saves when unconscious rule.

Personally I like the idea [MENTION=67]Rune[/MENTION] put forward about "save or die in a round"; the idea is the party has one round to do something to save you or you're kaput. For the banshee this could be something like dragging you out of the zone, Bardic countersong, deafening you, etc.

Another alternative would be to force death saves while within the zone, even while conscious. Death saves seem to be a measure of "near scrape with death" so it makes an interesting daily "resource" to attack, and very thematically appropriate for the banshee.

 

[the Jester]

I favor "make a death save" over "lose a healing surge", too- it doesn't make the party unable to continue to another encounter, but it makes the ability deadly indeed.

 

[AntiStateQuixote]

If you want "save or die" in your game, then why not just make it a save-or-die effect?

Because it goes against the spirit of 4e.

I like the death saves idea.

Alternative proposed banshee wail power (for level 12 controller):

Standard Action

Banshee Wail (fear, necrotic) Encounter
Attack: close burst 10 (targets living creatures); +15 vs. Will
Hit: target makes a death save

First failed death save: the target is unconscious (save ends)
​

Miss: target is slowed (save ends)
Effect: Creates a zone in the burst that lasts until the end of the Banshee's next turn. Any living creature that ends its turn in the zone must make a death save. The Banshee may sustain the zone as a standard action.

 

[Klaus]

In previous versions of Dungeons and Dragons the wail of a banshee was deadly.

In 4e (following the "no save or die" unwritten rule) it's not so.

I don't like that.

Proposed banshee wail power (for level 12 controller):

Standard Action

Banshee Wail (fear, necrotic) Encounter
Attack: close burst 10 (targets living creatures); +15 vs. Will
Hit: target loses a healing surge and the target is immobilized (save ends)

First failed saving throw: target loses a healing surge and the target is unconscious (save ends)

Second failed saving throw: the target dies​

Miss: target is slowed (save ends)
Effect: Creates a zone in the burst that lasts until the end of the Banshee's next turn. Any creature that ends its turn in the zone loses a healing surge. The Banshee may sustain the zone as a standard action.


Special: a target with no healing surges available instead loses hit points equal to its surge value.

Please critique.

Try this:

Standard Action

Banshee Wail (necrotic, psychic) Encounter
Attack: close burst 10 (targets living creatures); +15 vs. Will
Hit: xdx necrotic and psychic damage, and the target is immobilized (save ends).
First failed save: the target is reduced to 0 hit points.

From there, you let nature (and the rules) run its course: death saves, healing, etc.

And try this flavah:

Special: Creatures inside a skald's aura automatically save against the banshee's wail.

 

[Quickleaf]

I like the death saves idea.

I like it cause there are very very few creatures that interact with death saves...the deathpriest hierophant imposes a penalty to death saves while within it's aura for example. Also it really fits the banshee's cry well.

Alternative proposed banshee wail power (for level 12 controller):

Standard Action

Banshee Wail (fear, necrotic) Encounter
Attack: close burst 10 (targets living creatures); +15 vs. Will
Hit: target makes a death save

First failed death save: the target is unconscious (save ends)
​

Miss: target is slowed (save ends)
Effect: Creates a zone in the burst that lasts until the end of the Banshee's next turn. Any living creature that ends its turn in the zone must make a death save. The Banshee may sustain the zone as a standard action.

I'm not convinced the falling unconscious part is quite right. I see why it would add tactical urgency since you've got to make death saves, but once you're unconscious the banshee's wail shouldn't effect you anymore should it?

Why not make it the target is immobilized after first failed death save or just outight add immobilized back into the "hit" entry.

 

[Unwise]

Dying is a condition in D&D. I can see no reason why you could not impose that condition using standard mechanics. It is just a matter of how suddenly you want to do so. Does it go straight to dying, or does it increase after saves, from Immobilise -> Unconcious -> Dying.

I would make it go straight to Dying myself. I would also not have it take away any HP. Either it kills you, or you are ok. The unconsciousness is coming from the dying, and the dying is coming from the ability. Sure, normally the dying condition comes from a lack of HP, this is just a special case.

This gives people time to get their friends back up, stabilize them (wax in ears?), but a simple heal will not do the trick. Only healing skill or things that gives saves will help.

When/if the person hops back up, they have taken no damage and are good to go again. So you did not just deplete their resources more than you hoped to.

Remember the added danger of the Banshee or its friends just doing a coup-de-grace on anything that is dying too.

 

[the Jester]

A couple things: Making the zone a burst 10 is excessive, IMHO, especially when you slow on a miss. As an encounter power, I also feel like this ought to do damage, especially given a standard action to sustain it. Also, I find your wording awkward, with the "first failed save" clause, and kind of like the idea that you can die on your feet.

How about something like this for a level 12 controller:

Banshee Wail (fear, necrotic) Encounter
Attack: close burst 5 (living creatures in the burst); +15 vs. Will
Hit: 3d8+4 necrotic and psychic damage, and the target must make a death save.
Miss: Half damage and the target is slowed (save ends)
Effect: The burst becomes a zone that lasts until the end of the Banshee's next turn. Any living creature that ends its turn in the zone must make a death save.

Then one of the following, depending on your taste:

Sustain Standard: The zone persists until the end of the banshee's next turn and each living creature within it takes 10 necrotic and psychic damage.

or:

Sustain Minor: The zone persists until the end of the banshee's next turn.

 

[Rune]

Looks good and vicious. I'd suggest nixing the "second failed save" part and default to the normal death saves when unconscious rule.

Personally I like the idea [MENTION=67]Rune[/MENTION] put forward about "save or die in a round"; the idea is the party has one round to do something to save you or you're kaput. For the banshee this could be something like dragging you out of the zone, Bardic countersong, deafening you, etc.

Another alternative would be to force death saves while within the zone, even while conscious. Death saves seem to be a measure of "near scrape with death" so it makes an interesting daily "resource" to attack, and very thematically appropriate for the banshee.

I like the "Save or Die in 1 Round" method, too. That said, in the case of the banshee, death saves make a lot of sense.

Because it goes against the spirit of 4e.

One of the things I love about 4e is how the elegance and balance of the system allows it to be very flexible in letting the DM define just what the spirit of the system is. I've been in many a 4e game that it would, indeed be against the spirit of the system. I've run many in which it would.

Dying is a condition in D&D. I can see no reason why you could not impose that condition using standard mechanics. It is just a matter of how suddenly you want to do so. Does it go straight to dying, or does it increase after saves, from Immobilise -> Unconcious -> Dying.

I would make it go straight to Dying myself. I would also not have it take away any HP. Either it kills you, or you are ok. The unconsciousness is coming from the dying, and the dying is coming from the ability. Sure, normally the dying condition comes from a lack of HP, this is just a special case.

This gives people time to get their friends back up, stabilize them (wax in ears?), but a simple heal will not do the trick. Only healing skill or things that gives saves will help.

When/if the person hops back up, they have taken no damage and are good to go again. So you did not just deplete their resources more than you hoped to.

Remember the added danger of the Banshee or its friends just doing a coup-de-grace on anything that is dying too.

I think this models the Banshee well (now, I'm going to have find a way to include one in my game!)