Rule ponderings by me..

[Erky]

Hey there lads!
Just after todays playing session I stumbled upon a few ideas for the next session, however the more I thought about it the more I ran into "I don't know how that works exactly" situations. So if anyone could specify how the following situations work and where they roughly get that from that would be much appreciated!

1. AOO's when being bull rushed, tripped, disarmed what not. Basically at the AOO part in the PHB it's said that a person can only make one AOO per turn. Does that mean that if two people in the same round try to bull rush a person the second gets to "have a go at it" without suffering an AOO from the defender (provided he took his AOO the first time since this is voluntarily)?

2. When a cleric for whatever reason changes his deity (generally over-time or forced by magical means of course) how would that work out for his domains? Would there just be some point where he loses his old domains and gets to choose two new one's? Or will he for whatever reason keep his old domains despite the deity change? I couldn't find anywhere how a deity change would affect domain choices so if anyone could clarify that would be much appreciated!

3. Can a cleric of good alignment summon a fiendish creature? I read over the summon creature part but I can't find anywhere that technically a good cleric can't summon a fiendish creature from his appropriate list. Common sense would say the summon might be less inclined to listen and more stubborn, but is it possible? Or did I over-read some rule saying it is strictly alignment bound?

4. Slightly linked to the last question. Can a cleric summon a creature in a location where it knows it will inevitably be hurt a lot. For example say there is a 5 by 5 ft spiked pit trap about 30 ft deep and two enemies fell in there. What'd be a better way to finish them than summoning a fiendish boar right above the pit plummeting it down onto the both of them?
Theoratically the fall of the boar would do (boars generally weigh 200 + pounds) 3d6 damage for a level three cleric spell. Not adding the possible extra's from the spikes they're being shoved into.
However when being summoned does the creature have any control over if it wants to arrive there or not? All that is stated in the PHB is that you can't summon a creature in an area that can't "support" it (given example no aquatic on land). Does summoning them in an odd spot count as unable to support? Or just "unlucky placement"? heh

5. When a cleric uses the spell command (level 1 spell PHB 3.5 page 211) on a creature. Say the cleric is in a 5 ft wide hallway crossing another 5 ft wide hallway with a pit trap (5ft x 5ft) in the middle. If the cleric stands right by the edge of the trap and uses the command spell approach on an enemy on the opposite side of the trap. The enemy knowing about the trap and knowing the slight detour (cutting the corners) can circumvent it. Would the enemy nevertheless walk into the trap? The quoted description of command is "On its turn, the subject moves toward you as quickly and directly as possible for 1 round.
Would his mind be affected enough to make him want to come directly as quick as he can or would he come directly within known safe routes?

There we go if any of you lads could shed some light on these or give your opinions on them that'd be much appreciated!

Erky

 

[3d6]

1) Yes, unless they have Combat Reflexes.
2) There aren't core rules for changing patrons, so it is left to the DM.
3) No. Good-aligned clerics can't cast spells with the evil descriptor, and a summoning spell used to summon an evil creature has the evil descriptor.
4) If the surface won't hold the summoned creature up, it can't support the summmoned creature. In other words, you can't summon a creature in mid-air.
5) A creature that walks into a trap he knows is there is going to be delayed quite a bit getting to you. He gets to you fmore quickly by going around the trap and does so.

 

[werk]

Pretty similar to 3d6's answers.

1. Yes, only one AoO per round excepting feats, etc.
2. I'd change the domains when he swears allegiance to the new diety. This isn't really established anywhere, except some settings have local rules...FR can't cast at all without a chosen diety, Eberron can continue casting from old domains even after forsaking god/church/alignment. IMC I don't require diety selection except in the FR, but characters cannot change their domains without significant effort.
3. "When you use a summoning spell to summon an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type." So a 'good' caster could not use an 'evil' summoning, and vice-versa. Good motivation to have true neutral summoners.
4. Right, no summoning creatures in the air and dropping them on bad guys. You could summon it next to the pit, and order it to jump in on it's first round if you can communicate with it.
5. This one is a little more open to interpretation. I would say no because the commanded creature is not helpless, even if commanded to be so. I couldn't find anything in the description saying that they avoid injuring themselves, or anything to that effect, same with summoning.

 

[Stormrunner]

Cleric changing deities:
Players Handbook II, p193 sidebar, Divine Conversion:
"A cleric who changes his patron deity must complete a quest to prove his devotion to his new patron. The nature of the quest depends on the deity, and it always clearly reflects the deity's alignment as well as his or her goals and beliefs. To start the process, the cleric must voluntarily accept a geas/quest spell cast by a higher-level cleric of his new deity. During the quest, the cleric has no access to spells or cleric class features - except his weapon and armor proficiencies, which he does not forfeit. Upon completing the quest, the cleric receives an atonement spell from a cleric of his new deity. The character then becomes a cleric of the new deity and is inducted into the clergy during an appropriate ceremony of the DM's choosing. After selecting two of the new deity's domains in lieu of his old ones, the character has all the powers and abilities of his previous cleric level, plus the granted powers of the new domains."

While the above doesn't quite make it clear, IMC I would rule that a cleric who formerly had the War domain but is changing to a deity that doesn't have that domain does NOT retain the benefit of the "bonus" weapon proficiency from the War domain, since that is a domain power and he is stripped of all domain powers while on the quest. If his new deity does have the War domain, he can regain his former bonus proficiency upon completing the quest and choosing War as one of his new domains. Harsh, I know, but the whole point is that the PC has to struggle to prove himself - switching deities is not supposed to be a cakewalk!

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

The summoning example can get really funny.

What if you summon it on top of a buidling - you don't realize it's flimsy. The animal appears on top of the building, then it falls as the building collapses.

Now what if you do realize the building is flimsy, but aren't sure whether the building can support it?

 

[Erky]

Yeah with the summoning thing I don't think I'm quite convinced. It does say in the rules can't support it. But as an example it gives that aquatic beings can't be summoned on land. That is a whole different type of support than structural support.
On the other hand I suppose summoning a land animal in the air makes it unable to support cause it would need an areal creature. And that falls in the non structural support.

However if I would summon it on a floor that is trapped I don't see why it couldn't support it, it can breath there and what not. It sounds silly that just because I know there is a trap there I couldn't summon a being there. And even sillier if I couldn't summon a being there even if I didn't know there was a trap there because then summon monster suddenly turns into a detect trap double.

So it's a bit of an odd thing. However being a good cleric I wouldn't ever do such a thing to a celestial creature naturally, so the option isn't quite viable anymore. But I'm still doubtful wether it's legally allowed.

Erky

 

[Krafen]

If a cleric were to change dieties from one that has the War domain to another that has the War domain, the bonus Martial Weapon Proficiency (if necessary) and Weapon Focus feats that are the domain's granted ability would change to match the new diety's favored weapon.

A good caster can summon an evil creature, although doing so is an evil act. Clerics, however, are restricted from casting spells "of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one)" (SRD).

 

[Benimoto]

Yeah with the summoning thing I don't think I'm quite convinced. It does say in the rules can't support it. But as an example it gives that aquatic beings can't be summoned on land. That is a whole different type of support than structural support.
On the other hand I suppose summoning a land animal in the air makes it unable to support cause it would need an areal creature. And that falls in the non structural support.

If you read the part in the "magic" chapeter of the PHB describing conjuration [summoning] spells, it's more clear about the requirements.

 

[dhaga]

On #4: I'd say you cannot summon a land-dwelling creature in mid-air. As suggested above, the boar could be summoned to the edge of the pit and instructed to jump in.

Alternatively, if the pit was larger, the boar could be summoned to the bottom of the pit. The enemies then would not take damage from the falling animal. However, they'd still be in a 30' deep pit, with a fiendish boar.

Since the pit is only 5' x 5', the only option for getting the boar into a pit already occupied by 2 enemies would be to summon to the edge and have it jump in (or request the largest party member bull-rush it and push it in).

 

[mvincent]

5. As DM, I would have ruled that the commanded individual would try to jump the pit when commanded to approach.

Edit: clarified