Rules for XP costs for spells are reducing their value for players to almost zero

[Zimbel16]

But a simple solution I can think of is rarity of spell components and/or increased cost to purchase instead of XP loss for spellcasting and item creation. It was the method used in prior editions. That method does not have to be that time consuming either as player's can stock up on rare componenets in larger settlements or even go on mini component hunting side quests that can be melded into campaigns.

True. For example, you could treat making an item essentially like buying an item, except that you need the pre-requistes, and it's 10% cheaper.

Under standard rules, I should note that my experience is that at low levels, an item-creating PC wants to spend as much XP as possible (they have a lot more of them relative to GP). At higher levels, it's more of a decision; my item-creating PCs have usually gone to around 50/50 (buy/create) at the higher levels (where GP is more plentiful than XP).

Obviously, this would change somewhat if you're using non-standard teasure awards. The lower the treasure, the more valuable item creation with XP is; conversely the higher the treasure, the less worthwhile item creation is.

 

[Zimbel16]

Exactly.


Mr_Spicoli, you need to look at the numbers to get a better idea of XP costs. Let me help:

A Clr 7 can cast Lesser Planar Ally, and gain a 6 HD outsider for 100 XP and 600gp.

At that level, we expect CR 6 - CR 9 opponents -- let's settle on a CR 7 opponent. The Clr 7 expects to earn (2100 XP / 4 party members = ) 525 XP. So, the Clr has his options: Played right, a 6 HD outsider is a big help, and the Cleric's party will easily handle the CR 7 threat....but the Clr will earn (effectively) 100XP less. Or, the Clr can chose not to summon the ally, and the threat will be a little tougher to handle.

Do you get it? Sure, the XP cost is a trade off - but there is a real benefit. It's not a no-brainer.

Here's another way to put it. The party (described in part above) has roughly 4 encounters/day for 3 days to gain roughly 7000 XP each to level up. The Cleric casts Lesser Planar Ally once/day.
This means that the Cleric's casting of this spell is a 300/7000 = 4.2% XP hit. At this type of rate, even if the DM dosen't give extra XP to lower-level party members, it's going to take around 23 levels to actually loose a full level relative to the rest of the party; at around LV 19, they'd be a level behind roughly 1/2 the time (asuming that this XP cost starts at LV 7). So even in this case, it's not a huge deal.

On the other hand, with multiple castings of Wish, you could get a significant XP hit.

 

[Mr_Spicoli]

Here's another way to put it. The party (described in part above) has roughly 4 encounters/day for 3 days to gain roughly 7000 XP each to level up. The Cleric casts Lesser Planar Ally once/day.
This means that the Cleric's casting of this spell is a 300/7000 = 4.2% XP hit. At this type of rate, even if the DM dosen't give extra XP to lower-level party members, it's going to take around 23 levels to actually loose a full level relative to the rest of the party; at around LV 19, they'd be a level behind roughly 1/2 the time (asuming that this XP cost starts at LV 7). So even in this case, it's not a huge deal.

On the other hand, with multiple castings of Wish, you could get a significant XP hit.

Yes in that regards Lesser Planar ally is not much of an XP hit. But you bring up the bigger point of greater XP hit spells which are probably more of a discussion point if at all. As it stands I will reserve judgement now until our group gets a good idea of how this effects the game in the long run.

 

[two]

CAST CAST CAST! BURN THEM XP's!

I think about XP spells in the following very basic way.

If I cast the XP spell a lot...and I mean A LOT... it will make me fall below the rest of the party at some point, for a while, before I catch up.

On the other hand, the party will be MUCH more powerful because I have used these powerful spells.

How often will these XP spells actually SAVE ME FROM DYING?

If I cast Planar Ally or Limited Wish 10 times, can I expect it to save me from dying once?

What about if I cast it 20 times? Won't it save me once?

Or 30?

Or 40?

Or 50?

You see the point.

You have to cast these spells a HUGE number of times to make up for the XP loss of NOT CASTING THE SPELL and dying because you were too scared to take a small xp hit.

Essentially, you are taking many small losses to avoid the occasional catastrophic loss.

In my experience, the small losses (100 xp here, there, etc.) never, but never, come close to the XP loss of even one death -- much less two.

(of the caster. If you throw in other party member deaths, it's a absolute 100% party winner)

Now this is tricky to figure out...how do you really know the planar ally saved the caster or another party member from death? Sometimes you don't know. But, sometimes, you DO (the planar ally used a key spell at the key moment; the BBEG killed the ally instead of the fighter with 1 HP left, etc.).

Cast these spells a lot. Keep track of the XP loss. Keep track of times you are 100% sure the spell saved a party life.

You will become a believer.

 

[Plane Sailing]

For example the cleric spell Call Lesser Planar Ally, a fourth level spell costs 100 XP to cast each time.

Apart from the other comments (which I agree with), you also ought to compare this with the arcane lesser planar binding - similar sort of effect except that lpb requires a magic circle against evil and a dimensional anchor and a special Cha check, and the creature you have summoned will attempt to escape and kill you!

The clerics xp cost offsets the lack of prep and risk compared to the arcane version of the spell.

(n.b. one of the powerful aspects of call/bind is that unlike summoned creatures they can teleport, use dimensional travel and do their own summoning as well. Teleporting creatures can act as messengers in a flash when you really need them.)

Cheers

 

[moritheil]

While I greatly respect Plane Sailing's expertise, I feel that it is largely disingenious to begin a talk of Planar Binding spells with their negatives. Essentially, planar binding spells are like planar ally spells, only with more flexibility and no costs, provided one's charisma is high enough and one does not wish to call something really big. With sufficient caster levels and careful selection of called creatures, there is almost no risk. True, one cannot call up single, powerful creatures without taking some significant risks, but one can easily maintain a private army of 20-30 medium or large elementals with a properly built sorcerer (starting at level 12 or so.) That is easily enough to tilt the balance of most fights with sheer numbers. There is the option of paying called creatures, but since the mechanic is an opposed charisma check, once a sorcerer has enough charisma, creatures such as elementals can simply be forced to serve.

IMO, the planar binding spells (and the fact that they run off charisma) singlehandedly make up for much of the wizard's overall superiority compared to sorcerers.

 

[Nail]

moritheil, do you mean that "With Planar Binding, a sorcerer at last equals a wizard in power"? Your last statement is unclear.

 

[Someone]

Apart from the other comments (which I agree with), you also ought to compare this with the arcane lesser planar binding - similar sort of effect except that lpb requires a magic circle against evil and a dimensional anchor and a special Cha check, and the creature you have summoned will attempt to escape and kill you!

The clerics xp cost offsets the lack of prep and risk compared to the arcane version of the spell.

(n.b. one of the powerful aspects of call/bind is that unlike summoned creatures they can teleport, use dimensional travel and do their own summoning as well. Teleporting creatures can act as messengers in a flash when you really need them.)

Cheers

I also noticed a disadvantage of the planar ally spells: you don´t choose the creature, your deity (Or, put in other words, the DM) chooses it. I wouldn´t cast it often if my cleric´s deity was chaotic!

With planar binding, on the other hand, you can call a specific creature.