Rules Lawyer: Improved Trip with Weapon Question

[Funeris]

Last night, Destan ruled that we can add the +4 bonus to the Dex modifier. If the balance was out of whack, we would have shifted it to follow the rules. All in all I still only managed to trip once in awhile. Based on my PC's stats, it probably wouldn't have made much of a difference whether we had gone with STR or DEX.

 

[ARandomGod]

Hrm. Well actually, on consideration, I would probably allow a player to take the Improved Trip feat, and swap out the +4 bonus to Str bonus for the ability to use Dex bonus (without the +4 bonus). That doesn't seem particularly unbalancing to me. What do you think?

I think that the instances where that would be better than a +4 strength modifier are few and far between... And, while tripping is powerful, Improved Trip shows enough training to allow it (IMO) with the additional +4 to the roll, even though you're using dex. Now, I'd make the person choose when he chose the feat whether it was going to be dex or strength, of course. But now we're completely moving into house rules type discussions.

 

[IndyPendant]

Sorry for derailing your thread, Funeris, I didn't intend to. --But I'll take the fact that you're responding to indicate that you're interested anyways. : )

The issue for me isn't that using Dex instead of Str is overpowered on its own; I just dislike swapping stat mods on a general basis, and do so rarely. A few examples that I have seen and rejected are the feat that allows you to use Wis instead of Dex for bows, and the one that allows you to use wis instead of con for fort saves.

The reason I dislike them is because it promotes extremes in stats; Zen Archery becomes *required* for any archer/priest, and dex can be dropped to 12 at the highest, to give just one example. Finesse fighters give up damage for the benefit of being able to ignore Str. and focus on Dex. Give them nifty abilities like Trip and then base it on Dex, and you go a *long* way towards removing the penalty Finesse fighters pay.

Comments? Are there counterarguments I haven't considered? : )

 

[Demoquin]

I figure that you could make the trip attack with the DEX mod as you dont exactly need brute strength. I think everyone is using the str mod as of just pushing him over. While a *swift*kick to the back of the knee could be just as effective.

Nancy Carrigan anyone? *whack to the back of knee* * falls* " Why Me ?!?!?"

 

[ARandomGod]

Sorry for derailing your thread, Funeris, I didn't intend to. --But I'll take the fact that you're responding to indicate that you're interested anyways. : )

The issue for me isn't that using Dex instead of Str is overpowered on its own; I just dislike swapping stat mods on a general basis, and do so rarely. A few examples that I have seen and rejected are the feat that allows you to use Wis instead of Dex for bows, and the one that allows you to use wis instead of con for fort saves.

The reason I dislike them is because it promotes extremes in stats; Zen Archery becomes *required* for any archer/priest, and dex can be dropped to 12 at the highest, to give just one example. Finesse fighters give up damage for the benefit of being able to ignore Str. and focus on Dex. Give them nifty abilities like Trip and then base it on Dex, and you go a *long* way towards removing the penalty Finesse fighters pay.

Comments? Are there counterarguments I haven't considered? : )

I agree with the majority of what you're saying there... the only issue or counterarguement I have is just WoTC's focus on Big is Good and Strength is Everything. By which I mean, I personally think that grappling is indeed a strength based thing, but trips should be dex based *by default*. (Definition... Trip: A maneuver causing someone to stumble or fall.) As it is you're not really tripping someone at all, you're attempting to knock them to the ground, which is an entirely different thing, and isn't really about causing them to lose their balance and fall so much as it's about SMASH PUNY THING TO GROUND. Hence my personal feel that trip should be dex based. Of course, once again we're talking completely about house rules... and not one I've actually ever made myself. Another completely acceptable 'house rule' to make to rectify this situation would be to no longer call the feat as written trip (as it's CLEARLY not a trip), and to instead call it something like "throw" or "knockdown" (well, that one's already taken...)