D&D 5E Rules Question - Alert (Feat): +5 vs Advantage

[Paraxis]

Right now a druid with Alert and in animal form that has keen senses can benifit from both, if you change it having double advantage doesn't do anything.

Now human level 2 druid 16 wis has a passive perception of 20 (25 involving whatever keen sense the animal form has).
10 +3 wis mod +2 prof +5(Alert) =20, and having advantage from keen senses gives another +5 to passive perception.

 

[keterys]

I'm pretty sure this makes the feat better (because it adds), but maybe I'm missing something.

It's better than advantage only in situations in which you already have advantage.

So, for some druids, some of the time. The rest of the time _especially for the investigation skill, which by its very nature is almost never used passively_, I'd rather have advantage on the relevant skill than +5 to its passive.

Really, they could have just given +5 to the skills without restricting it to passive only. Too many DMs bypass passive skills anyways.

 

[fuindordm]

The DMG magic items seem to consider them equivalent. It has several skill enhancer items; some give +5 and some give advantage; all are uncommon.

If you have a feat/item that grants you advantage, it also means you are never at disadvantage. Your result is capped at 20, however.
If you have a feat/item that gives you +5, the roll might still be made with advantage or disadvantage. But you can reach higher target numbers.

Of course, challenges with target numbers > 20 are very very rare. Still, I'd rather have the +5 when the DC is high, and I'd rather have advantage when the DCs are more routine.

 

[Kobold Stew]

I now understand your point. Thanks.

Too many DMs bypass passive skills anyways.

Is this true? My experience with 5e has been the reverse -- with the passive perception, we're never asked specifically for perception checks any more, which is a good thing (IMO) -- it speeds up play.

I guess it's hard to quantify "too many" in any case. I'm sure some DMs bypass it, but others do not, and neither of us has access to a statistically meaningful sample size.

 

[keterys]

I dunno; how many passive investigation checks have been used by anyone, anywhere? The only passive skill that sees common use is Passive Perception, and many (about 1 in 3, that I've run into) DMs still prefer to ask for the group to roll Perception checks to notice many things*. In many other cases in 5e, your passive perception isn't useful because you need to be specifically searching something.

Ie, in many 5e adventures, having a high passive perception won't tell you that the books on the bookcase look out of place. You need to say "I search the bookcase" to have a chance to notice the book that opens the secret door or has the key hidden in it, at which point it isn't passive anymore.

* Understandably in some cases. Otherwise it's always the same person who discovers something, always the same people who aren't surprised, etc. Some people dislike that style of play.

 

[Joe Liker]

I dunno; how many passive investigation checks have been used by anyone, anywhere? The only passive skill that sees common use is Passive Perception, and many (about 1 in 3, that I've run into) DMs still prefer to ask for the group to roll Perception checks to notice many things*. In many other cases in 5e, your passive perception isn't useful because you need to be specifically searching something.

I'm curious about your sample size here. I'm guessing it's not actually big enough to be statistically significant.

We should probably assume everyone is following the RAW; otherwise, we're just a bunch of nerds sharing house rules.

 

[Joe Liker]

I ask, because I like the Advantage mechanic, but also seems more consistent with the ruleset. The static bonus sounds like a powerful magic item, which is what I though Advantage was supposed to address by providing bounded accuracy instead of static buffs.

It might be obvious, but I'm not seeing it. And I know that whatever works for table is the right answer, but wanted to see if it would affect the math too dramatically.

I don't see anything to be gained by changing the rule. Everyone should have his/her initiative bonus pre-calculated and recorded on the character sheet, anyway, so changing to advantage would actually be slightly more work (two die rolls instead of one).

Plus, there are a few effects that actually do give advantage to initiative rolls. I can't remember them off the top of my head, but if you change this feat, you are eliminating the benefit of those other effects.

 

[keterys]

I'm curious about your sample size here.

About a dozen DMs.

I'm guessing it's not actually big enough to be statistically significant.

Certainly true. It's very difficult to get statistically significant data for D&D.

We should probably assume everyone is following the RAW; otherwise, we're just a bunch of nerds sharing house rules.

That's fine, but that's also my point. By RAW you use passive perception very rarely. Its primary use is to determine if you're surprised by someone stealthing.

Otherwise it's a hodgepodge of use from DM to DM.

 

[keterys]

Aside: If anyone can produce an instance of passive investigation use, please let me know? I haven't found one yet, and the definition and even name of the skill largely precludes its use.

I'm guessing maybe in some illusion somewhere? A search didn't turn anything up in either of the free pdfs, but maybe in some published adventure, or a spell added later.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Going by PHB p. 175, it's for cases where there would be repeated checks searching for secret doors or detecting illusions, etc.

but it's not called out to my knowledge anywhere, and as you noted play styles vary.